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Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.

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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:57 pm

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WeberFan wrote:Well put, Shayvaan. IIRC, Charis was to the point of having to strip the cannons from the reserve galleys to provide enough metal for the new cannons, and each galleon had a LOT more cannon than any galley!


Lack of hulls and seamen werent really the issue. Charis had a huge merchant fleet to draw on. Lack of cannon and people trained to use galleons as warships would have been the issue.

Don

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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by Henry Brown   » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:55 am

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n7axw wrote:
WeberFan wrote:Well put, Shayvaan. IIRC, Charis was to the point of having to strip the cannons from the reserve galleys to provide enough metal for the new cannons, and each galleon had a LOT more cannon than any galley!


Lack of hulls and seamen werent really the issue. Charis had a huge merchant fleet to draw on. Lack of cannon and people trained to use galleons as warships would have been the issue.

Don

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I think they had the cannon. Remember, they built and armed those giant floating batteries to protect the Throat *AFTER* Cayleb left for AR. Just checked and there were 15 of them with 30 carronades each. This indicates to me that even that early in the series, Charis's cannon production was high.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by shayvaan   » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:01 am

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Henry Brown wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Lack of hulls and seamen werent really the issue. Charis had a huge merchant fleet to draw on. Lack of cannon and people trained to use galleons as warships would have been the issue.

Don

-


I think they had the cannon. Remember, they built and armed those giant floating batteries to protect the Throat *AFTER* Cayleb left for AR. Just checked and there were 15 of them with 30 carronades each. This indicates to me that even that early in the series, Charis's cannon production was high.


I had forgotten those :shock:
But that would seem to answer the original question on why there were no more galleons between Cayleb's departure for AR and the battle of Darcos Sound, all the cannons had gone to either the floating batteries or to the galley fleet.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by Moorningstaar   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:00 pm

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Keep in mind that those ships could have been finished but they are weeks of sailing away from Cayleb's fleet. Even if they could be manned and armed they could not magically transport themselves to Cayleb.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by WeberFan   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:49 pm

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Good point about the additional cannon after Caleb left, HenryBrown.

I suspect that a lot of things were already in the works when Caleb left:
- Construction of additional galleons.
- Howsym ramping up foundry capacity to make additional cannon.
- Pillaging the cannon loadout of the existing reserve galleys.
- Getting at least some cannon from other Charisian industrialists.
- And more?

I'm not saying at all that on one day there is a huge shortage of cannon and on the next day there's a huge surplus. But I think that even as quickly as the need for lots of cannon was identified, Charis started working to fill the need from many sources.

When Destiny returned to Charis with Hektor, Iris, Coris, et al on board, the cannon were already in place. I haven't checked the textev, but somehow between when Caleb left and when Destiny returned a LOT of cannon were manufactured for the new galleon construction as well as for the defensive batteries.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by saber964   » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:43 pm

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WeberFan wrote:Good point about the additional cannon after Caleb left, HenryBrown.

I suspect that a lot of things were already in the works when Caleb left:
- Construction of additional galleons.
- Howsym ramping up foundry capacity to make additional cannon.
- Pillaging the cannon loadout of the existing reserve galleys.
- Getting at least some cannon from other Charisian industrialists.
- And more?

I'm not saying at all that on one day there is a huge shortage of cannon and on the next day there's a huge surplus. But I think that even as quickly as the need for lots of cannon was identified, Charis started working to fill the need from many sources.

When Destiny returned to Charis with Hektor, Iris, Coris, et al on board, the cannon were already in place. I haven't checked the textev, but somehow between when Caleb left and when Destiny returned a LOT of cannon were manufactured for the new galleon construction as well as for the defensive batteries.

IIRC the difference is a couple-three years. Plus in that time they had purpose built defensive barges and had likely rotated through the earlier ones for cannons for new construction.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by Henry Brown   » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:58 pm

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Moorningstaar wrote:Keep in mind that those ships could have been finished but they are weeks of sailing away from Cayleb's fleet. Even if they could be manned and armed they could not magically transport themselves to Cayleb.


I was not talking about the newly constructed galleons joining Cayleb's fleet. I was talking about the possibility of the newly constructed galleons joining with King Haarald and his fleet of galleys. Given how effective galleons were against galleys, even a small squadron of newly built ships would have had a large impact. The galleons could have operated independently of his galleys during the period where he played cat and mouse with Black Water's fleet while waiting for Cayleb to return.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:57 pm

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It should also be pointed out that co-ordinating Galleys and Galleons together is exceedingly difficult because of the radically different way they are propelled and manouver.

E.g a galley can row directly into the wind if tactically desirable

Note that in the final battle of Darcos sound even with some help from Merlins coms the two fleets fought as totally seperate tactical units according to the needs of each unit type.

THis works OK-ish for a final decisive battle but is much less desirable when you are attempting to manouver tactically in a drawn out stalling match. Committing a few galleons in such a situationwould run the risk of them getting caught and defeated in detail or severely curtailing the manouverability of the whole fleet because the senior commanders in Haaralds fleet don't know how to manouver Galleons. It is clear in the book that all the competant Galleon officers were with Caleb.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:08 am

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saber964 wrote:
WeberFan wrote:Good point about the additional cannon after Caleb left, HenryBrown.

I suspect that a lot of things were already in the works when Caleb left:
- Construction of additional galleons.
- Howsym ramping up foundry capacity to make additional cannon.
- Pillaging the cannon loadout of the existing reserve galleys.
- Getting at least some cannon from other Charisian industrialists.
- And more?

I'm not saying at all that on one day there is a huge shortage of cannon and on the next day there's a huge surplus. But I think that even as quickly as the need for lots of cannon was identified, Charis started working to fill the need from many sources.

When Destiny returned to Charis with Hektor, Iris, Coris, et al on board, the cannon were already in place. I haven't checked the textev, but somehow between when Caleb left and when Destiny returned a LOT of cannon were manufactured for the new galleon construction as well as for the defensive batteries.

IIRC the difference is a couple-three years. Plus in that time they had purpose built defensive barges and had likely rotated through the earlier ones for cannons for new construction.


The defensive barges are probably where all their construction effort went. They built enough of them to cover the throat and probably needed all the new construction cannon to as well as any cannon from the reserves that Cayleb didn't take with him.
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Re: Question about the Battle of Darcos Sound in OAR.
Post by WeberFan   » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:54 am

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Keith_w wrote:The defensive barges are probably where all their construction effort went. They built enough of them to cover the throat and probably needed all the new construction cannon to as well as any cannon from the reserves that Cayleb didn't take with him.

Good point, Keith_W, but I'm not convinced. IMHO there was lots of construction of barges going on, but that construction was by no means all, or even mostly where the money was going. I suspect that this was just one more of many programs that were taking place - all at the same time...

We already know (but didn't read about it until later) that the treasury was hemorrhaging (my word here but I think it's an appropriate one) Marks... Added to the spending by the Crown was all the "private" infrastructure / investment spending going on by Howsym and others.

Personally, I think the construction of the barges was important (yes) but no more important than the purchase of additional cannon for the fleet, construction of new galleons, outfitting of land forces (the Marines), research at the College, and a whole host of other things. One of many priorities, but not the crown jewel of them. In fact, I think the only area where there wasn't any spending going on was for galley construction!
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