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A question about Diesel

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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by chrisd   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:43 am

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Weird Harold wrote: I doubt anyone would design a Diesel engine to use the La Brea Tar Pits as fuel although the pits are technically "crude oil" deposits.

The remainders from fractional distillation are often very thick and viscous, barely liquid. IIRC, ships that use "Bunker Fuel" use steam heat to make the fuel pumpable. Again, just an engineering challenge to design an engine that will work on the fuel available -- as long as the fuel is technically liquid or can be liquefied.



Note here that "Doxford Engines" at Sunderland did eventually get one of their "76J4" turbo-scavenged 2-stroke, double acting engines to run on a mixture including 95% powdered coal, which had been one of Dr. Diesel's original objectives (IIRC the mix was 95% Coal, 3% Sea Water and 2% Heavy Fuel Oil)

Having achieved this during a pseudo-Oil Crisis they were then "Shafted" by British Shipbuilders, closed down with two years orders on the books and their patents sold off to the competition (Sulzer)
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by Bodrules   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:44 pm

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I read of people in England, where diesel engines are more common in autos, that people have been fined for using cooking oil in their vehicles, easily identifiable by odour,


I've never heard of anyone getting nicked for this, people using "red diesel" (diesel dyed red, to ID it, as it is meant to be used in agriculture and as such attracts no taxation) for own use, sure they get busted when their purchases exceed thresholds on likely use on their farm.


Under law, you can make 2,500 liters per annum (you have to keep a record) which is 550 Imperial gallons - so at say 32 mpg (low for a diesel, but accounts for poorer quality etc) and that's 17,500 miles per annum - more than enough as the average motorist in the UK drives around 8,000 miles per annum (2015 data).


I suppose that there will be some adjustments in fuel taxes made for electric vehicles, in the UK as there will be everywhere else as well


Yeah, they'll just ramp up VED - basically a tax on vehicle ownership, They're already doing it as fuel purchases decline due to increasing fuel efficiency and the transition to hybrids and electric vehicles.

Time to use petroleum for it's potential as an organic chemistry feedstock not wastefully burn it.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:55 pm

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Bodrules wrote:
I read of people in England, where diesel engines are more common in autos, that people have been fined for using cooking oil in their vehicles, easily identifiable by odour,


I've never heard of anyone getting nicked for this, people using "red diesel" (diesel dyed red, to ID it, as it is meant to be used in agriculture and as such attracts no taxation) for own use, sure they get busted when their purchases exceed thresholds on likely use on their farm.


Under law, you can make 2,500 liters per annum (you have to keep a record) which is 550 Imperial gallons - so at say 32 mpg (low for a diesel, but accounts for poorer quality etc) and that's 17,500 miles per annum - more than enough as the average motorist in the UK drives around 8,000 miles per annum (2015 data).


I suppose that there will be some adjustments in fuel taxes made for electric vehicles, in the UK as there will be everywhere else as well


Yeah, they'll just ramp up VED - basically a tax on vehicle ownership, They're already doing it as fuel purchases decline due to increasing fuel efficiency and the transition to hybrids and electric vehicles.

Time to use petroleum for it's potential as an organic chemistry feedstock not wastefully burn it.


It was in Wales http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/2312521.stm and reported on Wednesday, 9 October, 2002, so quite some time ago, nevertheless...

Police impound cars run on cooking oil

Police in west Wales have taken action against five drivers in one day for using vehicles run on cooking oil as part of a clampdown on the illegal practice.

The motorists were stopped under new legislation which makes it an offence to use the oil as an alternative fuel without paying a fuel tax levy.


On the other hand, as I was searching for this article in Google, I found a lot of articles on using cooking oil in a diesel vehicle, stories about converting it to biodiesel, including how-tos, conversion kits so your car runs properly on it (an former co-worker of mine moved to Germany and did this to his car) and story about Quantas doing a cooking oil/biodiesel flight.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by chrisd   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:41 am

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Keith_w wrote: I've never heard of anyone getting nicked for this, people using "red diesel" (diesel dyed red, to ID it, as it is meant to be used in agriculture and as such attracts no taxation) for own use, sure they get busted when their purchases exceed thresholds on likely use on their farm.



"Red " Diesel is also used for railway locomotives, as it is "Duty Free"

Note that Government enforcers are always far more "proactive" when the "tax base" is bypassed.
As in the USA with "Moonshine"

To quote and old song "Run like the Devil from the Excise Man . . . ."

how any honest and truthful man can join the "Infernal revenue" in the first place beats me.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by saber964   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:19 pm

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chrisd wrote:
Keith_w wrote: I've never heard of anyone getting nicked for this, people using "red diesel" (diesel dyed red, to ID it, as it is meant to be used in agriculture and as such attracts no taxation) for own use, sure they get busted when their purchases exceed thresholds on likely use on their farm.



"Red " Diesel is also used for railway locomotives, as it is "Duty Free"

Note that Government enforcers are always far more "proactive" when the "tax base" is bypassed.
As in the USA with "Moonshine"

To quote and old song "Run like the Devil from the Excise Man . . . ."

how any honest and truthful man can join the "Infernal revenue" in the first place beats me.



A friend of mine got busted for making gasahol a few years back. He would make moonshine and mix it with gasoline to make either E-25 or E-50. He was busted for making untaxed alcohol but the case got tossed when it came out that he wasn't selling the alcohol but mixing it with gasoline. The state government went after him next for selling untaxed gasoline but that case got tossed when he pointed out that the state had recently passed a law encouraging the use of biofuels.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:43 am

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A couple of points.
Very early diesel tractors like Bulldogs used a blank shotgun cartridge to start.
Plus in WW2 when petrol was rationed, kerosene was available, so my father made up an adaptor for granddad's straight 8 Dodge. A small tank of petrol was used to start up the car and get it to operating temperature then the main tank full of kerosene fed the fuel to the carburettor via a copper pipe coiled near the exhaust manifold that heated it up to vaporisation temperature.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by Erls   » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:21 pm

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Keep in mind that the core people developing any Safeholdian diesel technology will likely have access to Terran Fed technology. Or, at least, their employers/supervisors/bosses will.

Thus, it seems to me that with the right questions being asked of the researcher(s) the research would be 'managed' so as to come up with a highly efficient diesel system. Similar to how their first steam powered locomotives jumped centuries of trial and error on Earth to reach the three-stage process with minimal risks.

Only makes sense to me that any diesel tech would follow the same path and at the very least have a post catalytic-converter level of production. Sure, it's 'cheating'. But it also would greatly reduce harmful emissions and help further mask it (to the extent possible) from the orbital stations.

Also, its entirely possible that Merlin will travel back to AR and build a tiny diesel plant and let it run for a month or two before okaying its development. That would be the smart thing: make sure that the use of the tech doesn't immediately trigger a kinetic strike on the reef before pushing its development in Charis itself.
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by mhicks   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:55 pm

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Erls wrote:Keep in mind that the core people developing any Safeholdian diesel technology will likely have access to Terran Fed technology. Or, at least, their employers/supervisors/bosses will.

Thus, it seems to me that with the right questions being asked of the researcher(s) the research would be 'managed' so as to come up with a highly efficient diesel system. Similar to how their first steam powered locomotives jumped centuries of trial and error on Earth to reach the three-stage process with minimal risks.

Only makes sense to me that any diesel tech would follow the same path and at the very least have a post catalytic-converter level of production. Sure, it's 'cheating'. But it also would greatly reduce harmful emissions and help further mask it (to the extent possible) from the orbital stations.

Also, its entirely possible that Merlin will travel back to AR and build a tiny diesel plant and let it run for a month or two before okaying its development. That would be the smart thing: make sure that the use of the tech doesn't immediately trigger a kinetic strike on the reef before pushing its development in Charis itself.


Seeing how the Church lost the Jihad against Charis, what would be the harm in a trigger of the kinetic strike on AR? No one lives there to see it, so why not test the limits now that the church is on the ropes? If the Temple gets an alert and it was right at the time that Clyntan was captured you could have blamed it on the daemon inquisitor. Doing so 20 years later might not be such a good idea.

:!: Who is going to be in charge of the church 20 years after the war? Lots of people can get sick, old and die in 20 years. Not to mention assassinations and poisonings and jealous wives... Who will be leading the church in 20 years... What is the average life span on Safehold without the wonders or modern medicine and HMO's?
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:29 pm

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mhicks wrote:
Seeing how the Church lost the Jihad against Charis, what would be the harm in a trigger of the kinetic strike on AR? No one lives there to see it, so why not test the limits now that the church is on the ropes? If the Temple gets an alert and it was right at the time that Clyntan was captured you could have blamed it on the daemon inquisitor. Doing so 20 years later might not be such a good idea.

:!: Who is going to be in charge of the church 20 years after the war? Lots of people can get sick, old and die in 20 years. Not to mention assassinations and poisonings and jealous wives... Who will be leading the church in 20 years... What is the average life span on Safehold without the wonders or modern medicine and HMO's?

On the other hand there's concern that, now that they know there's something big on a timer in the church basement, that triggering the OBS could also cause it to alert Zion's automated programs and end the thousand year nap early.

Is it worth risking the years you've got until then just to get higher tech deployed? Or are you better off working on getting a scientific worldview well established around the brand new steam and lighter than air tech you've already gotten away with?

It might not be a big chance but the likely downside if you lose that gamble seems quite large; so are the stakes worth the risk?
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Re: A question about Diesel
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:50 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
mhicks wrote:
Seeing how the Church lost the Jihad against Charis, what would be the harm in a trigger of the kinetic strike on AR? No one lives there to see it, so why not test the limits now that the church is on the ropes? If the Temple gets an alert and it was right at the time that Clyntan was captured you could have blamed it on the daemon inquisitor. Doing so 20 years later might not be such a good idea.

:!: Who is going to be in charge of the church 20 years after the war? Lots of people can get sick, old and die in 20 years. Not to mention assassinations and poisonings and jealous wives... Who will be leading the church in 20 years... What is the average life span on Safehold without the wonders or modern medicine and HMO's?

On the other hand there's concern that, now that they know there's something big on a timer in the church basement, that triggering the OBS could also cause it to alert Zion's automated programs and end the thousand year nap early.

Is it worth risking the years you've got until then just to get higher tech deployed? Or are you better off working on getting a scientific worldview well established around the brand new steam and lighter than air tech you've already gotten away with?

It might not be a big chance but the likely downside if you lose that gamble seems quite large; so are the stakes worth the risk?

They don't KNOW that there is something on a timer in the church basement-- they think there is based on Wylsynn family lore.
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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