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What happens to Helm Cleaver now?

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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by Hildum   » Wed May 30, 2018 10:22 pm

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I think we can see an example of the sort of thing that will happen by just looking around the USA today. We have a historically extremely religious country that just over fifty years ago made fundamentally religious changes to national identity - examples include changing the national slogan from "from many, one" to "in god we trust" and adding the words "under god" to the pledge of allegiance.

At the time the majority of the population attended church at least a few times a year, and viewed themselves as churchgoing. Now, on the other hand, the majority of the population does not attend church at all; while they may believe in a god, they do NOT follow the precepts on any particular religion. Basically, we have a huge number of agnostics, and the number of outright atheists has increased as well, to the point that that active church membership is now a minority in the US. We are also seeing rules against promulgation of particular religions by government agencies mostly being enforce - essentially, the Christians are now being forced to play by the same rules as every other religion in many areas.

So, now we see the backlash with the rise of evangelical influence on the Republican party, a vast media campaign to claim that Christians are being oppressed because they cannot hold school lead bible studies, put up ten commandment monuments on public property, and government officials are expected to do their job regardless of their personal beliefs. Of course, those same rules are enforced against Muslims, Hindus, and Jews with a vengence. Even the claim that Christmas was being X'd out was part of this. (This last was particularly ironic, as it showed that the majority of Christians do not know the history of their own religion, as X was one of the early Christian symbols.) There are repeated attempts to move public funding to religious organizations, and the prohibition on churches advocating for public office candidates is routinely flaunted.

Religion, as illustrated in these books and history itself, is a fine tool for authoritarians and dictatorships. It is a millstone on educated, industrial civilizations. There is blood of innocents on every one of those religious vestments, and there will be more blood until we can get rid of these primitive superstitious beliefs.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:55 pm

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I agree strongly with much of your argument and would also point out that the concept of separation of church and state is not something that the churches pushed for...
With the church of Zion we see exactly why our founding fathers wanted so much to be sure that the church did not set government policy (don't look too closely but the religious right is undermining that)and the ripples are including legalized sports gambling, among other unexpected consequences.
The religious right will also grouse and complain that they cannot put their religious icons on public property (including in public schools and parks) but they also scream like a stuck pig if anyone wants to put a Buddha next to the Christmas nativity or offer study of The Quran, The Talmud or (God Forbid) Secular humanism in addition to the Bible.
A typical case of wanting to have their case and eat it too.



Hildum wrote:I think we can see an example of the sort of thing that will happen by just looking around the USA today. We have a historically extremely religious country that just over fifty years ago made fundamentally religious changes to national identity - examples include changing the national slogan from "from many, one" to "in god we trust" and adding the words "under god" to the pledge of allegiance.

At the time the majority of the population attended church at least a few times a year, and viewed themselves as churchgoing. Now, on the other hand, the majority of the population does not attend church at all; while they may believe in a god, they do NOT follow the precepts on any particular religion. Basically, we have a huge number of agnostics, and the number of outright atheists has increased as well, to the point that that active church membership is now a minority in the US. We are also seeing rules against promulgation of particular religions by government agencies mostly being enforce - essentially, the Christians are now being forced to play by the same rules as every other religion in many areas.

So, now we see the backlash with the rise of evangelical influence on the Republican party, a vast media campaign to claim that Christians are being oppressed because they cannot hold school lead bible studies, put up ten commandment monuments on public property, and government officials are expected to do their job regardless of their personal beliefs. Of course, those same rules are enforced against Muslims, Hindus, and Jews with a vengence. Even the claim that Christmas was being X'd out was part of this. (This last was particularly ironic, as it showed that the majority of Christians do not know the history of their own religion, as X was one of the early Christian symbols.) There are repeated attempts to move public funding to religious organizations, and the prohibition on churches advocating for public office candidates is routinely flaunted.

Religion, as illustrated in these books and history itself, is a fine tool for authoritarians and dictatorships. It is a millstone on educated, industrial civilizations. There is blood of innocents on every one of those religious vestments, and there will be more blood until we can get rid of these primitive superstitious beliefs.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:49 pm

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The tragedy of this sort of thing is that the church gives up its prophetic role of advocating for the poor and being a voice for the voiceless in order to become a part of the establishment. When that happens, the church has become a part of the world rather than marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Note my byline...Theocracies are ultimately corrupt.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:51 am

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n7axw wrote:The tragedy of this sort of thing is that the church gives up its prophetic role of advocating for the poor and being a voice for the voiceless in order to become a part of the establishment. When that happens, the church has become a part of the world rather than marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Note my byline...Theocracies are ultimately corrupt.

Don

-



Amen Brother! (your signature line is on target... like a shot between the eyes)

I wonder how a "church" in the USA could exhibit so many similarities with the grand inquisitor and other vicars in Zion... living in spender while people are homeless and malnourished only miles from their door.

Long ago, I gave up trust in organized religions and politics.
Both are too self serving for me.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:37 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
n7axw wrote:The tragedy of this sort of thing is that the church gives up its prophetic role of advocating for the poor and being a voice for the voiceless in order to become a part of the establishment. When that happens, the church has become a part of the world rather than marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Note my byline...Theocracies are ultimately corrupt.

Don

-



Amen Brother! (your signature line is on target... like a shot between the eyes)

I wonder how a "church" in the USA could exhibit so many similarities with the grand inquisitor and other vicars in Zion... living in spender while people are homeless and malnourished only miles from their door.

Long ago, I gave up trust in organized religions and politics.
Both are too self serving for me.


Much of the better work in mission and service is done by organized religion. I'm proud of the ELCA of which I am a pastor (retired but still working). We had our Synod Assembly this weekend and heard about what we are doing both locally and abroad. Great stuff.

But it remains true that the church is a hospital for sinners at least as much as a gathering for saints. We all still fall far short of the call God has placed upon us...as in we are still sinful human beings. Welcome to reality.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:29 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
n7axw wrote:The tragedy of this sort of thing is that the church gives up its prophetic role of advocating for the poor and being a voice for the voiceless in order to become a part of the establishment. When that happens, the church has become a part of the world rather than marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Note my byline...Theocracies are ultimately corrupt.

Don

-


Just look at the pearcher who's trying to raise what? 50 Million to purchase his 4th private jet. That money could do a lot of good in other places.


Amen Brother! (your signature line is on target... like a shot between the eyes)

I wonder how a "church" in the USA could exhibit so many similarities with the grand inquisitor and other vicars in Zion... living in spender while people are homeless and malnourished only miles from their door.

Long ago, I gave up trust in organized religions and politics.
Both are too self serving for me.
Top
Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:53 am

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Don,
I don't deny that you are devout or that you have ears to hear "What ever you have done for these, the least of my brothers..."
I have observed too much of an US vrs THEM in both politics and religion and (check out this link 4minutes 59 seconds(https://youtu.be/POYTbdV2-yc)) too many of "THE RELIGIOUS" right fail to see that the "in group" will damn the others rather than reasoning with them.
Grid lock and damnation of the "Unsaved" serve the same personality flaw.


C. O. Thompson wrote:
n7axw wrote:The tragedy of this sort of thing is that the church gives up its prophetic role of advocating for the poor and being a voice for the voiceless in order to become a part of the establishment. When that happens, the church has become a part of the world rather than marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Note my byline...Theocracies are ultimately corrupt.

Don

-



Amen Brother! (your signature line is on target... like a shot between the eyes)

I wonder how a "church" in the USA could exhibit so many similarities with the grand inquisitor and other vicars in Zion... living in spender while people are homeless and malnourished only miles from their door.

Long ago, I gave up trust in organized religions and politics.
Both are too self serving for me.


Much of the better work in mission and service is done by organized religion. I'm proud of the ELCA of which I am a pastor (retired but still working). We had our Synod Assembly this weekend and heard about what we are doing both locally and abroad. Great stuff.

But it remains true that the church is a hospital for sinners at least as much as a gathering for saints. We all still fall far short of the call God has placed upon us...as in we are still sinful human beings. Welcome to reality.

Don

-[/quote]
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:56 am

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C.O. Thompson,

EVERY In group tends to treat outsiders as The Other. This is true for clan structures, atheist communists, modern political parties and just about any other organized group. This fact is mitigated by the degree that a group operates with a reliance on individuals to make their own decisions. As soon that individuals lose that ability, the group become a tool to segregate between themselves and Others.

That's why Staynair's religious emphasis on individual responsibility to choose how God's message should be lived is so important. Equally important is Cayleb and Sharley's strict adherence to honoring those choices legally. Their apparent strategy is to instill a deep enough conviction in individual choice that when the Reveal comes, enough citizens of Charis and hopefully Safehold will recognize the moral imperative to accept others' disagreement. They may continue to try and persuade others, but they will not attempt to compell their understanding of God's will upon anyone.

I became a Christian because of that individual responsibility. I am a proud American for the very same reason. We may not be responsible for our own salvation, but we certainly are responsible for how we live our lives in Christ. Likewise, we may not have chosen to become Americans, but we certainly do choose to use our liberty in our lives. So long as that individual liberty and the attendant responsibility is guarded jealously, we should be fine. Just Safehold should be fine if they develop a core of that conviction.
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