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What happens to Helm Cleaver now?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:33 am

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ecortez wrote:The fundamental document of their order is the Journal of St. Khody. Which, especially with the Spanish text fully translated, includes his own doubts about the Archangels and the CoGA. Bringing other Helm Cleaver members into the Inner Circle probably won't be that difficult, although (obviously) a few may not be good candidates. The order already knows the church has "edited" history and lied about a number of things. It's probably less of a stretch for them to break with the Holy Writ that it was for the Brothers of Saint Zherneau.


With the brothers, their inner circle has already broken with the Writ since they know the full truth. The sisters, on the other hand, affirm the Writ. What sets them apart is their devotion to St Khody and the journal along with with their awareness that the testimonies have been edited.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:50 am

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n7axw wrote:
ecortez wrote:The fundamental document of their order is the Journal of St. Khody. Which, especially with the Spanish text fully translated, includes his own doubts about the Archangels and the CoGA. Bringing other Helm Cleaver members into the Inner Circle probably won't be that difficult, although (obviously) a few may not be good candidates. The order already knows the church has "edited" history and lied about a number of things. It's probably less of a stretch for them to break with the Holy Writ that it was for the Brothers of Saint Zherneau.


With the brothers, their inner circle has already broken with the Writ since they know the full truth. The sisters, on the other hand, affirm the Writ. What sets them apart is their devotion to St Khody and the journal along with with their awareness that the testimonies have been edited.

Don

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They actually hold positions that are potentially very useful regarding the Writ. They accept that the Writ is devine, but know that the Writ is NOT the complete truth.

They know that the Adams came from elsewhere prior to Creation. They disagree where that elsewhere is. Many believe that god created the Adams in Heaven and the archangels brought them to Safehold. Other speculate that the elsewhere is as yet unknown but isn't Heaven.

That hybrid belief is useful for preparing Safehold to begin questioning the Writ. Evidence leads religious thought away from the doctrinal interpretation of Creation. Let that questioning follow where people's intellectual curiosity take it. Anywhere away from the CoGA dogma prior to the Jihad is a good place to be for the second story arc.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:17 pm

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Hi PeterZ,

True. But the point is that they still have that transition to make. And as we have seen with Sandaria, even for the sisters it can be wretching. Still, you make a valid point.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:44 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

True. But the point is that they still have that transition to make. And as we have seen with Sandaria, even for the sisters it can be wretching. Still, you make a valid point.

Don

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I totally agree the transition will be very wrenching and cause a good deal of retching as well. That goes without saying. Trying to avoid that is foolish and unhealthy. Reveal the truth when it is time to do so and let the people react honestly to that truth. Preparing for the reveal does not mean trying to manage the reaction. If folks believe they are being managed with something so fundamentally disruptive as a revision of their understanding of Divinity, they will not believe a darned thing said. Seeing the machinations will overwhelm the veracity of the message.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:27 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

True. But the point is that they still have that transition to make. And as we have seen with Sandaria, even for the sisters it can be wretching. Still, you make a valid point.

Don

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I totally agree the transition will be very wrenching and cause a good deal of retching as well. That goes without saying. Trying to avoid that is foolish and unhealthy. Reveal the truth when it is time to do so and let the people react honestly to that truth. Preparing for the reveal does not mean trying to manage the reaction. If folks believe they are being managed with something so fundamentally disruptive as a revision of their understanding of Divinity, they will not believe a darned thing said. Seeing the machinations will overwhelm the veracity of the message.


Yeah, I agree. But from the !looks of things,the inner circle not ready to go public. Do you think they should?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:52 pm

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No. That's why I think the SSK's views are so beneficial. That's an honest and independent POV asserting an alternative to the accepted creation story. That POV existed well before Merlin came upon the scene. They have evidence backing up their questioning. They have Khody's journal and his divine armor and sword. Using that evidence they postulate a different creation narrative. That sort of healthy speculation is what will prepare the way for the reveal.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:32 am

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I think someone needs to start writing science fiction. I'd say some steam punk but they are just entering the steam age so I don't think that would work as well as it does here.

Also, you can't call it science fiction, because on Safehold everyone would ask, what the heck is science?
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:50 am

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So you call it speculative fiction, since that it what it is. Basically telling the true story, but clearly labeled as fiction.
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:54 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:So you call it speculative fiction, since that it what it is. Basically telling the true story, but clearly labeled as fiction.


That would be interestng and fun, wouldn't it?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What happens to Helm Cleaver now?
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:12 pm

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Keith_w wrote:I think someone needs to start writing science fiction. I'd say some steam punk but they are just entering the steam age so I don't think that would work as well as it does here.

Also, you can't call it science fiction, because on Safehold everyone would ask, what the heck is science?


Oh, I like that. After all, the balloons are only one thing that "flies in the face of tradition" (Pun was not intended till I started typing it ;) ) And wouldn't Owl and Narmahn have fun ghost writing ( ;) )
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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