Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Concrete

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Concrete
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:52 pm

Maldorian
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:54 am

A question: Does the People on Safehold know the secret of concrete? Or is that an tecnology that wasn´t needed for the safehold colonization? Concrete could be useful for the channels, but on the other way it is one of the underestimated modern tecnologies.
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:09 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3520
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Maldorian wrote:A question: Does the People on Safehold know the secret of concrete? Or is that an tecnology that wasn´t needed for the safehold colonization? Concrete could be useful for the channels, but on the other way it is one of the underestimated modern tecnologies.


I don't recall any specific mention of concrete (or cement) but the technology dates back to at least the Roman Empire. I'd be surprised if Safehold didn't know and use concrete/cement enough that is unremarkable.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Dalin   » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:07 am

Dalin
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 pm

from LAMA:

That’s what I was afraid of.” Maigwair’d expression was grim. “And that doesn’t even consider the effect weather’s going to have! Will we even be able to pour concrete over the winter?”
.
.
The new lock will be somewhat narrower than the old one, and we’ll probably lose more water because the wooden panels are going to leak and we’ll be filling in between them and the canal wall with earth and gravel ballast, not concrete. They won’t last as long, either — we’re not sure they’ll last through even one normal Siddarmarkian winter — but we’ll be able to replace them fairly rapidly if they go down again.
.
.
.
Unlike most of the canals in the Temple Lands, where the walls and floor were poured concrete, or the newer canals farther south here in t Siddarmark, where kiln-fired brick was often used, the St. Bahzlyr’s walls were native stone, shaped by hand, squared, and laid up with mortar.
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Maldorian   » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:58 am

Maldorian
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:54 am

Thanks for the answers.

If I am remember correct, there was nowhere a concrete Fortress, only bricks and Stone.
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:34 am

Randomiser
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1116
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: Scotland

Maldorian wrote:Thanks for the answers.

If I am remember correct, there was nowhere a concrete Fortress, only bricks and Stone.


I think you are right. However, the Temple seemed to have big enough problems producing sufficient iron for the war effort anyway, without having to make loads of rebar as well.
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by dobriennm   » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:36 pm

dobriennm
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:44 pm

Randomiser wrote:
I think you are right. However, the Temple seemed to have big enough problems producing sufficient iron for the war effort anyway, without having to make loads of rebar as well.


You could make concrete fortresses/buildings without rebar (the Romans made buildings without rebar, after all).

However, you may be correct in that making a concrete fortress (or fortifications) without rebar that could stand up to the more modern weapons employed by Charis would probably be difficult.

Also, not sure the suggestion of concrete fortresses would go over well with the Grand Inquisitor. After all, fortresses are associated with static defenses, static borders, not an aggressive offensive strategy. Remember, even the tactical defense/strategic offense policy adopted at the end was sugarcoated to display more the offense part - at least as explained to the Grand Inquisitor.
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:02 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3520
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

dobriennm wrote:
Randomiser wrote:
I think you are right. However, the Temple seemed to have big enough problems producing sufficient iron for the war effort anyway, without having to make loads of rebar as well.


You could make concrete fortresses/buildings without rebar (the Romans made buildings without rebar, after all).


Just as importantly, it doesn't take iron or steel to reinforce concrete. Safehold has some options in that regard that are natural and sustainable that aren't available in the real world.

Alternative reinforcement materials and techniques won't necessarily be a strong as steel rebar but can probably match simple iron reinforcement.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber-reinforced_concrete for an overview.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by WeberFan   » Mon May 01, 2017 4:37 pm

WeberFan
Commander

Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:12 am

There are numerous references to concrete being used as a construction material in the later books.

Reference: Like a Mighty Army, August, Year of God 896. II The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands.

The context is Maigwair discussing canal / lock repairs with Duchairn.

"That's what I was afraid of." Maigwair's expression was grim. "And that doesn't even consider the effect weather's gong to have! Will we even be able to pour concrete over the winter?"
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Hildum   » Mon May 08, 2017 3:31 pm

Hildum
Commander

Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:15 pm

Maldorian wrote:A question: Does the People on Safehold know the secret of concrete? Or is that an tecnology that wasn´t needed for the safehold colonization? Concrete could be useful for the channels, but on the other way it is one of the underestimated modern tecnologies.


Modern technologies? Surely you jest. Much of Rome was built of concrete, as were the aqueducts. If you can design a building such that all the loads are compressive, then you do not need to reinforce the concrete, and the building can effectively last forever. Domes are a great example of this.

Modern buildings and concrete structures are usually designed to have a mix of compressive and tensile loads; hence the need for rebar in modern construction. Without rebar concrete has no tensile strength. The rebar, however, will eventually destroy the concrete as it expands as it weathers (rusts); the expansion places tensile load on the concrete, causing it to crack and fail.

Concrete is such a basic building material, I am certain that it would have been included in the Writ, along with the instructions for rebar to allow for reinforced concrete. In fact, if you look at the descriptions of some of the buildings, it is likely that they must have been constructed with reinforced concrete.

(Yes, I know the text mentions concrete. Clearly, Safehold knows about it now, but I am answering the question as to if it was known from the beginning.)
Top
Re: Concrete
Post by Keith_w   » Tue May 09, 2017 7:03 am

Keith_w
Commodore

Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Hildum wrote:
Maldorian wrote:A question: Does the People on Safehold know the secret of concrete? Or is that an tecnology that wasn´t needed for the safehold colonization? Concrete could be useful for the channels, but on the other way it is one of the underestimated modern tecnologies.


Modern technologies? Surely you jest. Much of Rome was built of concrete, as were the aqueducts. If you can design a building such that all the loads are compressive, then you do not need to reinforce the concrete, and the building can effectively last forever. Domes are a great example of this.

Modern buildings and concrete structures are usually designed to have a mix of compressive and tensile loads; hence the need for rebar in modern construction. Without rebar concrete has no tensile strength. The rebar, however, will eventually destroy the concrete as it expands as it weathers (rusts); the expansion places tensile load on the concrete, causing it to crack and fail.

Concrete is such a basic building material, I am certain that it would have been included in the Writ, along with the instructions for rebar to allow for reinforced concrete. In fact, if you look at the descriptions of some of the buildings, it is likely that they must have been constructed with reinforced concrete.

(Yes, I know the text mentions concrete. Clearly, Safehold knows about it now, but I am answering the question as to if it was known from the beginning.)


Rebar is usually steel is it not? And we know that Safeholdians were not producing all that much steel. Is bronze rebar effective? I am not sure how much ambient temperature affects either steel or bronze or if it is important in construction. It would seem more likely that they would produce concrete blocks rather than poured concrete. Also I would remind you of the burning of the royal library in Telesburg, which burned more like a wooden construction rather than a concrete one, although that may have been the effect of all the old, dried out paper stored there.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Top

Return to Safehold