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Safehold post-Jihad

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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:51 am

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DrakBibliophile wrote:I got the impression that South Harchong is in favor of ending serfdom.

South Harchong is now in the position of "breaking away from North Harchong looks good/possible".

Of course, if the Host can't return to North Harchong, then South Harchong has a nice army to defend itself from North Harchong.


Would South Harchong want approximately 1.5 million North Harchong soldiers controlled by North Harchong aristocrats mucking about in their business relationships? I somehow doubt it. If the Mighty Host goes the Howard, it will be to function as an army against a target nation; Desnair. North Harchong wants those troops away from their empire or dead. Targeting Desnair accomplishes both imperatives.

South Harchong will gladly fund the expedition as it will increase their economic base and resources while gradually cementing that army's loyalty to the Southern merchant dynasties.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:32 pm

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I really don't know how this is gonna go but I have an image of Rainbow Waters returning to N. Harchong with the MH at his back and introducing the powers that be there to a new order through superior firepower. They remind me of dinasaurs before the meteor struck.

The MH would make a very respectable meteor, don't you think?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:46 pm

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"Want" and "Need" are two different things. ;)

Of course, the Northern Nobles aren't the "Normal" Harchongian Nobles so they might get along better with the Southern Merchant Class than we might expect.

Also assuming that Southern Harchong is going to build factories, the serfs of the Mighty Host may be welcome as workers in the new factories.

As for using the Mighty Host against Desnair, I think "getting" the Mighty Host to Desnair is the problem.

There isn't an easy sea route between the Host's current location and Desnair.

While there is a land route, there's a question of trust.

IE Would the Rulers of the land route trust the Host to be only intending war against Desnair?


PeterZ wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:I got the impression that South Harchong is in favor of ending serfdom.

South Harchong is now in the position of "breaking away from North Harchong looks good/possible".

Of course, if the Host can't return to North Harchong, then South Harchong has a nice army to defend itself from North Harchong.


Would South Harchong want approximately 1.5 million North Harchong soldiers controlled by North Harchong aristocrats mucking about in their business relationships? I somehow doubt it. If the Mighty Host goes the Howard, it will be to function as an army against a target nation; Desnair. North Harchong wants those troops away from their empire or dead. Targeting Desnair accomplishes both imperatives.

South Harchong will gladly fund the expedition as it will increase their economic base and resources while gradually cementing that army's loyalty to the Southern merchant dynasties.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:47 pm

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It would be the safest way for Rainbow Waters to "return home". :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

n7axw wrote:I really don't know how this is gonna go but I have an image of Rainbow Waters returning to N. Harchong with the MH at his back and introducing the powers that be there to a new order through superior firepower. They remind me of dinasaurs before the meteor struck.

The MH would make a very respectable meteor, don't you think?

Don

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Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:03 pm

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Safest route would be to head North to Salyk on Spinefish Bay. I am sure Charis will provide the bottoms to send those troops South and out of their good friend the Lord Protector's hair. It'll take a while, but would be doable.

DrakBibliophile wrote:"Want" and "Need" are two different things. ;)

Of course, the Northern Nobles aren't the "Normal" Harchongian Nobles so they might get along better with the Southern Merchant Class than we might expect.

Also assuming that Southern Harchong is going to build factories, the serfs of the Mighty Host may be welcome as workers in the new factories.

As for using the Mighty Host against Desnair, I think "getting" the Mighty Host to Desnair is the problem.

There isn't an easy sea route between the Host's current location and Desnair.

While there is a land route, there's a question of trust.

IE Would the Rulers of the land route trust the Host to be only intending war against Desnair?


DrakBibliophile wrote:I got the impression that South Harchong is in favor of ending serfdom.

South Harchong is now in the position of "breaking away from North Harchong looks good/possible".

Of course, if the Host can't return to North Harchong, then South Harchong has a nice army to defend itself from North Harchong.

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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by Michae   » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:25 am

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n7axw wrote:I really don't know how this is gonna go but I have an image of Rainbow Waters returning to N. Harchong with the MH at his back and introducing the powers that be there to a new order through superior firepower. They remind me of dinasaurs before the meteor struck.

The MH would make a very respectable meteor, don't you think?

Don

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Assuming that this does actually happen, I'm wondering if the EOC could use this as some kind of leverage,against North Harchong? Something along the lines of "we could allow this army free access and provide them with free shipping,and warships as well but if you do X-amount of things for us,maybe we could be persuaded not to?
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:04 pm

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Michae wrote:
n7axw wrote:I really don't know how this is gonna go but I have an image of Rainbow Waters returning to N. Harchong with the MH at his back and introducing the powers that be there to a new order through superior firepower. They remind me of dinasaurs before the meteor struck.

The MH would make a very respectable meteor, don't you think?

Don

-


Assuming that this does actually happen, I'm wondering if the EOC could use this as some kind of leverage,against North Harchong? Something along the lines of "we could allow this army free access and provide them with free shipping,and warships as well but if you do X-amount of things for us,maybe we could be persuaded not to?


Or the MH and RW can be persuaded to emigrate to Silverlode. If North Harchong has issues with the MH infecting any part of their Empire and the Grand Vicar refuses to bless moving them to Desnair, resettlement to Silverlode may be the best alternative. Certainly the Lord Protector wouldn't want these trained Temple Loyalist resettled along his Western Border ready to take up arms again for Duchairn's successor.

Silverlode on the other hand isn't part of the Empire as all the other EoC nations are. Silverlode is the private property of Cayleb Zahn Bryahn Ahrmahk. Rainbow Waters can emigrate there under terms of fealty that will not betray his sense of obligation to Harchong. His men will have the option of accepting the same conditions or accepting Charisian citizenship. Of course Cayleb will insist any family of his new vassals have the option of joining their relatives at Cayleb's expense. Heck, he should even encourage......expanding....the list of relatives as much as possible. Cayleb could get as many as 5-7 million people with a significant majority likely female. Male serfs do more work after all. That would increase Charis' population by 10%-15%. They need the population to offset the inflationary effects of all the gold they are introducing into their economy.

That would be a suitably important task to perform for Charis.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:38 pm

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What would concern me about sending them to Silverlode would be the influx of a huge number of TLs into the EOC. While they would be isolated, the potential for unrest would still be there.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by shayvaan   » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:08 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Or the MH and RW can be persuaded to emigrate to Silverlode. If North Harchong has issues with the MH infecting any part of their Empire and the Grand Vicar refuses to bless moving them to Desnair, resettlement to Silverlode may be the best alternative. Certainly the Lord Protector wouldn't want these trained Temple Loyalist resettled along his Western Border ready to take up arms again for Duchairn's successor.

Silverlode on the other hand isn't part of the Empire as all the other EoC nations are. Silverlode is the private property of Cayleb Zahn Bryahn Ahrmahk. Rainbow Waters can emigrate there under terms of fealty that will not betray his sense of obligation to Harchong. His men will have the option of accepting the same conditions or accepting Charisian citizenship. Of course Cayleb will insist any family of his new vassals have the option of joining their relatives at Cayleb's expense. Heck, he should even encourage......expanding....the list of relatives as much as possible. Cayleb could get as many as 5-7 million people with a significant majority likely female. Male serfs do more work after all. That would increase Charis' population by 10%-15%. They need the population to offset the inflationary effects of all the gold they are introducing into their economy.

That would be a suitably important task to perform for Charis.


Quite aside from the implications of adding 5-7 million TLs to the population of the EOC (over a million of whom were soldiers who were dedicated to BREAKING the EOC), where would you come up with the infrastructure to feed them? Educate them (remember these are mostly serfs)? Or any of the thousand and one other things like shelter and medical care that goes into a stable society?
In the Honor Harrington series they had a hard time providing for providing decent living conditions for a million or so prisoners-of-war with a contra-grav society, don't think I'd want to try something on that scale with the early-industrial society of even Charis.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:26 pm

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shayvaan wrote:Quite aside from the implications of adding 5-7 million TLs to the population of the EOC (over a million of whom were soldiers who were dedicated to BREAKING the EOC), where would you come up with the infrastructure to feed them? Educate them (remember these are mostly serfs)? Or any of the thousand and one other things like shelter and medical care that goes into a stable society?
In the Honor Harrington series they had a hard time providing for providing decent living conditions for a million or so prisoners-of-war with a contra-grav society, don't think I'd want to try something on that scale with the early-industrial society of even Charis.


That is called sweat equity. The MH can build their new towns. I am sure there will be clergy who will volunteer to see to the health, to teach and even to minister to those people. Between the sweat equity of 5-7 million people consecrating land and building towns and cities from the wilderness and the moral guidance of clergy willing to exile themselves into that wilderness in the name of their vocation, the MH will forever be infected with independence of mind and thought. These stubborn and independent folk will have Cayleb and Sharleyan to thank for the independence, lives and yes, freedom for themselves and their families.

Cayleb gave them this opportunity for a pittance! He simply asks them to create every convenience they wish from the wilderness. He doesn't even claim the product of that labor as the old Harchong aristocrats did only to give back a tithe (if they were lucky). No, he allows the immigrants to keep the product of their work and only asks a tithe in return for his protection against madmen like Clyntahn and the worst of the Harchong Nobles.

It will take months if not a year or two and multiple trips to move those men to Silverlode. The first group can begin getting things in order and the follow on groups will add to the infrastructure. All the while their dependents will move East and West to meet in Silverlode. I am sure there will be extra galleons available for fishermen to buy dirt cheap for use to feed these men until enough land has ben consecrated to support the new population. Between that and exported agricultural products from Charis, Emerald, Corisande and Chisholm, feeding those men will not be a problem.

The big question will be assimilation. No one will know what sort of culture will develop on Silverlode. What can be foreseen is that the new immigrants will be a hardy, independent and stubborn lot who will be grateful to an Emperor and Empress who returned the Mighty Host's attempt to kill their imperial subjects with life and freedom for themselves and their families. Surely, God acts through those paragons of virtue and generosity! Perhaps it shows that the Emperor's Church may be correct in their doctrine after all.
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