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Safehold post-Jihad

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Re: Safehold post-Jihad (Spoilers)
Post by Louis R   » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:04 pm

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I get the feeling that some of this discussion is predicated on facts that simply aren't in evidence.

A real divergence of interests between South and North Harchong, for example, or even a serious sense of 'we aren't them'. The conditions are certainly in place to create such a divergence _now_, and there does appear to be an existing variation in culture for them to act on. However, this is a very new situation, and the fissures won't be apparent for a generation or so. If then. For all we know, the South already plays a big-enough role in Imperial decision making for the two halves to rub along quite comfortably for another 6 or 10 decades [while the cultural dispersion steadily widens into a gap in the background - that should be acutely familiar to students of the US civil war], or even to push the entire Empire in its preferred direction. There have been many variations on the model of the "Empire of Desks" in history, and centralisation has been a variable and often dynamic thing.

Something else to be careful about is exactly how distinct the upper classes are and which shows what attitude most strongly. Here, BTW, is where we have some of the stronger hints of divergence between the north and the south: the interweaving of nobility, bureaucracy and merchants _seems_ to be stronger in South Harchong. However, there is probably much more of it than is immediately apparent even in the North. In any case, their interests and attitudes may be more similar than some people are assuming. More important still, the distribution of influence may well not be what is thought. In Imperial China, for example, it was the bureaucrats who were the die-hard reactionaries. And the people with their hands on the levers of power. It was only when their grasp slipped - which happened every 2-3 centuries, in fact - that the nobility pops up again as 'warlords'. From what we've seen, though, the commanders of the Mighty Host are consummate bureaucrats, which is interesting given that they are drawn almost entirely from the middle and lower nobility. There's clearly a lot of overlap. Is that because the military bureaucracy is the only one open - or at least viewed as suitable - to the nobility, or simply a selection effect: the only Harchongese we ever see are military types? There's certainly textev that there's a line between them, but just as much evidence that there isn't.


DMcCunney wrote:
PeterZ wrote:South Harchong on the whole would likely prefer to remain above the fray, any fray, anywhere. My assumption is more that some of the merchant families in the South will have strong feelings about the social abuses in both the North and Desnair. How different are they from similar merchant dynasties in the Northern States of the antebellum USA?

All it takes is one or two of these families and movements get funded. Once funded, these movements take on a life of its own with those passionate but less wealthy members providing the hands and feet of the movement. Furthermore, I doubt Charisian interests will remain above the fray in supporting such endeavors. Private and public interests will have their interests coincide in facilitating social change in Desnair and North Harchong.
Good point, but we don't know enough about the power structures in South Harchong. They seem to be governed by a branch of the Harchongese bureaucracy, and seem to have rather less of the great nobles that ossify North Harchong to maintain their social position.

But there is government, and likely people in a position to say "You can't do that!" to wealthy merchant families that want to stir the pot by financing revolutionary movements in North Harchong and Desnair.
All this suggests to me that the Northern Aristos will fight tooth and nail to prevent any part of the MH to move down south. That sort of weapon will allow South Harchong much more freedom to tell the North to pound sand any time they believe the cost of compliance is worth the effort to avoid compliance to any Imperial policy.
In practice, South Harchong could likely tell North Harchong to go pound sand now. What, precisely, could North Harchong do about it? I believe South Harchong's membership in the Harchongese empire has been increasingly nominal for some time. Given that the Harchong Sea and the Gulf of Dohlor separate North Harchong from South Harchong, doing something about it would require the Harchong Navy to ferry troops across and land them to spank the South Harchongese. I suspect the ICA might prevent that just on general principle. :P)

The principal factor keeping the Harchongese Empire intact is tradition, with the Emperor a symbol that all can point to and say "We are all Harchongese and loyal to the Emperor." But textev indicates the Emperor reigns but does not rule, and Imperial proclamations get filtered through the Emperor's council (or whatever the equivalent body is called in North Harchong) and the Imperial bureaucracy. The Emperor can likely say whatever he wants, but what is done is a rather different matter.
The only way the North will allow it is if there is a benefit to the North in having the MH move South.
How might they prevent it? They certainly don't want the MH back in North Harchong.

The challenge with the MH going to South Harchong is simply getting them there.
One example would be a war of conquest against Desnair. Adding Desnair to the imperial tax base would be worth letting the MH kill itself in Howard. The longer that fight continues, the fewer soldiers will be around to cause mischief. After the war is over, those soldiers can provide the garrison for Desnair.
Same practical problem as having them go to South Harchong. How do they get there?

The land route requires them to march through the Grand Duchy of Silkiah. You can assume Silkiah will not be thrilled by that, and its borders have been confirmed in perpetuity by Charis and Siddarmark.

An alternate would be staging through Dohlar or a Border State like Tanshar or Sabana, then proceeding by sea, but who provides the transport? I'm not sure North Harchong has the lift, and I don't see the ICN permitting it.
I seriously doubt letting the MH anywhere else in Harchong doing anything else will make the North comfortable.
The last thing North Harchong wants is for the MH to return home. As mentioned, the thought of a couple of million peasants and serfs who have been given modern weapons and training coming back to a system that treated them as less than beasts of the field (because the beasts cost money and have definable value) would be enough to have any rational North Harchong great noble waking up in a cold sweat. They have to be aware the returnees would not simply resume being oppressed when they have the power to resist it.

What will happen to the Mighty Host is a really good question. I think Lord Protector Stohnar's concerns about what will happen to Rainbow Waters if he tries to return home are justified, but I doubt he would actually be assassinated. Anyone who tried would have a lot of fun getting close enough to make the attempt. The response of pretty much anyone in the MH to a threat to Rainbow Waters is likely to be "You will do that over our dead bodies. Come and try it and see who actually gets dead."
______
Dennis
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad (Spoilers)
Post by shayvaan   » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:57 am

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Weird Harold wrote:Do we know this, or do we just assume that because we can see the implications that NH Nobles and Bureaucrats will see them also?

I would actually expect NH Nobles to be screaming and crying that they need their serfs back and Bureaucrats adding up the compensation to be paid in lieu of returned serfs.

The implications of training and arming the serfs when out of the NH Noble's immediate sight are going to be overlooked in favor of returning as many warm bodies as possible.

It isn't going to be particularly smart of NH, but they didn't really see serfs as real people, and they aren't going to see them as a real threat if (until) they get them back.


I believe that there is textev as to the Harchongese having had at least a local uprising or two.

We definitely have textev of the arms limitations that serfs live under and that North Harchong lives in fear of a servile rebellion.

We also have textev about the resistance to training the MHoGatA in the first place (including Rayno's).

Given all of that, I SERIOUSLY doubt that NH would take them back under ANY circumstances.

They would probably have a conniption fit if they tried to go to SH (although they might not be able to stop it either).

Most likely place, to me, is the Temple Lands, Duchairn would be simply delighted to have a couple million more people to work the fields and factories (and generating tithes).
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by thanatos   » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:59 pm

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There's a conversation among the Inner Circle in AtSoT in which Merlin explains the true purpose of the King Haarahld Class steamers to Nynian that I think has special bearing on the next book and the post-Jihad Safehold. That no other nation can ignore the power of Charis' new battleships and that they would need to fully embrace the industrialization of Charis in order to manufacture comparable vessels (and in sufficient numbers). The Church's problem will be how they stop that industrialization and the innovations that spawned it when they cannot apply the Proscriptions to all realms and with equal vigor. I have no doubt that a "counter reformation", such as the one Merlin mentioned in that conversation, will emerge within the Church, probably led by some relatively young vicar who ideological but humble and un-corruptible.

Such a vicar would demand that Mother Church rescind the Grand Inquisitor's attestations to the new innovations, processes and techniques - which were at best a wartime expediency and at worst a clear sign of his corruption and "moral flexibility" - and would even say that they must do their religious duty and enforce the letter of the Proscriptions, trusting to God and the Archangels to deal with all the realms that defy the Church. Yet if Duchairn or the Vicarite or the newly reformed Inquisition issue such an edict, its probable that it won't be followed because of the continued defiance of Charis and Siddarmark. If the two wealthiest and most powerful nations on Safehold continue to build battleships, trains, railroads and the industry to support them, all while building massive economies that can control trade policies and influence other nations with their wealth and control of shipping over sea and land, all the other nations will have to follow suit or be left in the dust.

So if the Church issues such an edict, what will he say to the rulers of those realms who will raise serious concerns over their inability to defend themselves against a potential Charisian or Siddarmarkian attack without the new technologies or a resist Charisian economic influence? The Church would be unable to defend those realms under any circumstances nor make up for the loss in Charisian goods or investments. So its an order that simply could not be obeyed and Duchairn would have to know that issuing such a decree and having it ignored would be a body blow to his authority and that of the Church. And that's before we delve into the potential mess that is the Temple Lands and whether they would be allowed to build up that industry and embrace the hated innovations. Such a group of ideologues in the Church might not care (at least in public) about the problems such a policy would cause, and Duchairn would probably enjoy political cover from most of the Council of Vicars for any important policy making decisions. But inevitably that cover would diminish or Duchairn might begin to weaken, whether physically or politically. The only questions are would this happen before or after the expected millennial visitation and whether it would be advantageous for Charis to accelerate its development so that it happens before the Great Revelation.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:50 am

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I tend to agree, Thanatos. Let's approach answering your final question.

Duchairn will incent those with true conviction to be promoted/advanced within the CoGA. That will inevitably lead to a much more honest and accurate interpretation of the Proscriptions within the CoGA. If the approach of those that hold this view within the CoGA is purely an argument promoting doctrine, the argument will sway clerics in Siddermark and Charis.

That success will lead to one of two likely outcomes. I believe there are many possible outcomes, of course, but the two most likely are 1) the argument stays a purely doctrinal argument within the branches of the Safehold churches or 2) The CoGA again launches an assault to enforce doctrinal unity.

If its 1, there will be proxy wars galore but the forces of the CoGA will not mobilize against Charis or Siddermark. The simmering proxy wars will continue until the Return.

If its 2, the war rages and likely is in full force when the Return happens. I believe this because Charis will cut through the mainland like poop through a goose and reach Zion in short order. Once there, the awakening happens whether the millennia is at hand or not. If Siddermark defends the mainland based on doctrinal principle, the war rages for quite some time and the millennia is reached.

I am not sure where my preference lies. In terms of plot, having Siddermark join the loyalists and perhaps Dohlar supporting the Charis in another Safehold wide war has some serious appeal. I would suggest that proxy wars would open up a much wider political menu of options and still maintain combat elements. Either way, RFC will tell this story well.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by thanatos   » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:48 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I tend to agree, Thanatos. Let's approach answering your final question.

Duchairn will incent those with true conviction to be promoted/advanced within the CoGA. That will inevitably lead to a much more honest and accurate interpretation of the Proscriptions within the CoGA. If the approach of those that hold this view within the CoGA is purely an argument promoting doctrine, the argument will sway clerics in Siddermark and Charis.

That success will lead to one of two likely outcomes. I believe there are many possible outcomes, of course, but the two most likely are 1) the argument stays a purely doctrinal argument within the branches of the Safehold churches or 2) The CoGA again launches an assault to enforce doctrinal unity.

If its 1, there will be proxy wars galore but the forces of the CoGA will not mobilize against Charis or Siddermark. The simmering proxy wars will continue until the Return.

If its 2, the war rages and likely is in full force when the Return happens. I believe this because Charis will cut through the mainland like poop through a goose and reach Zion in short order. Once there, the awakening happens whether the millennia is at hand or not. If Siddermark defends the mainland based on doctrinal principle, the war rages for quite some time and the millennia is reached.

I am not sure where my preference lies. In terms of plot, having Siddermark join the loyalists and perhaps Dohlar supporting the Charis in another Safehold wide war has some serious appeal. I would suggest that proxy wars would open up a much wider political menu of options and still maintain combat elements. Either way, RFC will tell this story well.


Duchairn has proven fairly adroit where politics are concerned, especially within the church. That said, the post-Jihad world will be quite different and the rules will be different. At this point in the story, Duchairn is succeeding in salvaging the Church by dealing with the corruption within the Church and the Inquisition. And we can bet that any lingering loyalty to Clyntahn or his warped vision of the Church will also be dealt with as part of this purge (though not as violently as Clyntahn's purge of Wylsynn and his Reformists). So he is in the position to truly impose his will and surround himself with loyalists.

Magwair is likely to be his staunchest supporter, along with the AOG that will continue to remain under Magwair's control (with no return to the Temple Guard). Duchairn will also have Phandis and his friends in the Temple Guard to personally protect him from any assassination attempts. And he will have the support of common Zionites who will continue to call him the Good Shepherd. But how long will all this good will continue to exist?

Duchairn would still need to maintain a good political relationship with Magwair, which would mean keeping the AOG happy. Magwair is a soldier at heart and his personality does not lend itself to the sort of convoluted plotting that the clergy previously engaged in. But maintaining a reasonable sized army and navy, along with weapons that have a chance of standing up to Charis, at least from a defensive posture, would be a bare minimum for Magwair.

More importantly, while Duchairn might succeed in restoring faith in the Church by delivering justice and purging it of corruption, its moral authority would still take years to restore. Before the Jihad, many rulers were still willing to follow the Church's lead because of that moral authority, their personal faith that the Church knew what it was doing and had the best interests of God's children at heart. But the Church lost that moral authority at Darcos Sound, when all but the dumbest of rulers realized that that was no longer the case and that their crowns were only safe so long as they remained pliant to the Clyntahn. That sort of trust is hard to reestablish, even with Duchairn's actions to date.

And finally there is the economic problem. The CoGA is up to its eyeballs in debt and while ending the Jihad and stopping the military expenditures will help it that regard, it still needs to repay its debts, the war bonds that it sold, compensate anyone who was stupid enough to buy up the Church's lands in the Empire of Charis (back in LAMA) and somehow rebuild its civilian economy after the Jihad (shifting to a peacetime economy). And that's before we even consider what Siddarmark would demand as compensation for the Sword of Schueler and the repayment of Church debts that were repudiated after it (if it still wishes to return Siddarmark into the fold).

All in all, Duchairn has his work cut out for him. However, unless the CoGA undergoes a fundamental change in its thinking, a sufficiently determined vicar with a real grasp on the military, economic and political realities, would be able to think about one option on how to deal with the "heretic" nations - Get them to fight each other with the hopes that they hurt each other enough for Mother Church to swoop in and clean up what's left or else to position it as a real power broker between them. He might even do it behind Ducharin's back in the belief that the external threat to the Church must be dealt with so that the Proscriptions can be reapplied internally. It's unlikely to work, especially with the Inner Circle keeping an eye on Siddarmark's leadership, but that doesn't mean they won't try.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by Louis R   » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:28 am

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Your sufficiently determined vicar would need access to the mechanisms of the Inquisition to accomplish this - and those will not be available. It's probably safe to assume that Rayno destroyed all records of the Rakurai that weren't locked between his ears [and Clyntahn disposed of those], which makes them unavailable unless and until they identify and approach a potential patron. And there were never many of them to begin with; fewer had the necessary political access, and attempting to exploit it would just bring them far enough out of the cold they'd get the chop in short order. The more normal intelligence organs of the Inquisition are either shredded, firmly under the control of Duchairn's appointees, or both - and are probably slated for dismantling in any case. And since they are known, they can be watched if they show signs of dissatisfaction with the new order. Meaning that your vicar can be nobbled PDQ if he tries to reorganise them: to the extent that Duchairn permits the Inquisition to maintain its secret police function [and it wouldn't be a surprise if that role was transferred to the Temple Guard] it will be directed towards precisely this sort of covert opposition.

So Secret Vicar is going to have to create his own organisation, working completely outside the hierarchy, however many members of it he may recruit, working through the traditionalists of the Temple Lands and Harchong and Temple Loyalists outside them. And the latter are so far out in the cold that returning them to positions where they can accomplish this is a work of generations. By which time "Loyalist" probably won't be an accurate descriptor anymore.

thanatos wrote:< snip >


All in all, Duchairn has his work cut out for him. However, unless the CoGA undergoes a fundamental change in its thinking, a sufficiently determined vicar with a real grasp on the military, economic and political realities, would be able to think about one option on how to deal with the "heretic" nations - Get them to fight each other with the hopes that they hurt each other enough for Mother Church to swoop in and clean up what's left or else to position it as a real power broker between them. He might even do it behind Ducharin's back in the belief that the external threat to the Church must be dealt with so that the Proscriptions can be reapplied internally. It's unlikely to work, especially with the Inner Circle keeping an eye on Siddarmark's leadership, but that doesn't mean they won't try.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by thanatos   » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:42 pm

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Louis R wrote:Your sufficiently determined vicar would need access to the mechanisms of the Inquisition to accomplish this - and those will not be available. It's probably safe to assume that Rayno destroyed all records of the Rakurai that weren't locked between his ears [and Clyntahn disposed of those], which makes them unavailable unless and until they identify and approach a potential patron. And there were never many of them to begin with; fewer had the necessary political access, and attempting to exploit it would just bring them far enough out of the cold they'd get the chop in short order. The more normal intelligence organs of the Inquisition are either shredded, firmly under the control of Duchairn's appointees, or both - and are probably slated for dismantling in any case. And since they are known, they can be watched if they show signs of dissatisfaction with the new order. Meaning that your vicar can be nobbled PDQ if he tries to reorganise them: to the extent that Duchairn permits the Inquisition to maintain its secret police function [and it wouldn't be a surprise if that role was transferred to the Temple Guard] it will be directed towards precisely this sort of covert opposition.

So Secret Vicar is going to have to create his own organisation, working completely outside the hierarchy, however many members of it he may recruit, working through the traditionalists of the Temple Lands and Harchong and Temple Loyalists outside them. And the latter are so far out in the cold that returning them to positions where they can accomplish this is a work of generations. By which time "Loyalist" probably won't be an accurate descriptor anymore.



I wasn't actually thinking about the old style, underhanded and medieval operations that the Inquisition routinely engaged in (like the Sword of Schueler or the assassination of Hektor Daikyn). Although now that you mentioned it, while Duchairn is in absolute control of the Church of God Awaiting at present, there is no telling how he will handle the emergence of an actual opposition within the Church to his reformist policies and lenient attitude towards enforcement of the Proscriptions. Would he constantly marginalize such a group? Would he try to buy them off politically? Or would he try to co-opt them by putting their leaders in positions of actual authority, implementing the policies they want to implement and watch them crash against the impenetrable wall of reality? Either way has risks.

But what I was thinking about was something that Merlin said in that conversation I mentioned above about a counter-reformation movement. I was thinking more along the lines of said determined vicar cultivating contacts among the remaining Temple Loyalists in a place like Siddarmark, building up their standing in their societies (despite the suspicion and hatred they would need to contend with), move them toward political activism and form a Temple Loyalist Party of Siddarmark, one whose platform fully accepts responsibility for the sins of the Temple and the Loyalists during the Jihad ("hey, even the Grand Vicar has made a public confession of those"), which adamantly rejects any new Charisian innovations ("just because Clyntahn allowed them in the Jihad, doesn't make them acceptable in God's eyes") and which continually pushes for true reconciliation with the Church and reunification under its political authority ("the Church has paid for Clyntahn's sins long enough and has done its penance - Now we must return to its loving arms and follow its lead"). Given that both Charis and Siddarmark are moving towards less monarchism and oligarchy and more democracy, and given their promises of religious toleration, the emergence of such a political party would be inevitable.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by Louis R   » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:06 pm

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I won't dispute inevitability - I may doubt it, but will allow it for the sake of argument - but they aren't going to be a problem for Rhobair Duchairn. And probably not for his immediate successor, either. Temple Loyaists in Siddarmark are currently in a position that's maybe a tad shakier than the Petainists in France in 1945 [a significant number of whom were, frankly, lynched]. It took 7 decades for their political successors to rebuild their influence to the point that anybody in government did more than smile at their antics. Whatever official policy may be, TLs in Siddarmark will be doing well if they don't find themselves living in ghettos for the next century. They're not going to be fomenting conflict with the EoC, or even Desnair or Dohlar. And having a vicar back in Zion openly promoting and supporting their efforts is simply going to weaken their position further.

BTW, counter-reformation isn't the correct term. The Counter-Reformation was a move by the Church hierarchy to stamp out the possibility of change that threatened the status quo. The Society of Jesus, Holy Office of the Inquisition and Index Librorum Prohibitorum were created as its tools - and were needed if they were to control free thought effectively. And worked only in the territories where the secular power decided that this was the outcome they wanted. France was the most powerful Catholic state of all from ~1670 - 1800. And the home and heart of the Enlightenment, than which few things more inimical to the Counter-Reformation can be imagined. The COGA was created with the instruments of counter-reformation already in place, but the reformers have reigned them in and cast the barn doors wide. The horses will be departing shortly, even from those barns where the farmer views even the hint of change as disastrous.



thanatos wrote:
Louis R wrote:Your sufficiently determined vicar would need access to the mechanisms of the Inquisition to accomplish this - and those will not be available. It's probably safe to assume that Rayno destroyed all records of the Rakurai that weren't locked between his ears [and Clyntahn disposed of those], which makes them unavailable unless and until they identify and approach a potential patron. And there were never many of them to begin with; fewer had the necessary political access, and attempting to exploit it would just bring them far enough out of the cold they'd get the chop in short order. The more normal intelligence organs of the Inquisition are either shredded, firmly under the control of Duchairn's appointees, or both - and are probably slated for dismantling in any case. And since they are known, they can be watched if they show signs of dissatisfaction with the new order. Meaning that your vicar can be nobbled PDQ if he tries to reorganise them: to the extent that Duchairn permits the Inquisition to maintain its secret police function [and it wouldn't be a surprise if that role was transferred to the Temple Guard] it will be directed towards precisely this sort of covert opposition.

So Secret Vicar is going to have to create his own organisation, working completely outside the hierarchy, however many members of it he may recruit, working through the traditionalists of the Temple Lands and Harchong and Temple Loyalists outside them. And the latter are so far out in the cold that returning them to positions where they can accomplish this is a work of generations. By which time "Loyalist" probably won't be an accurate descriptor anymore.



I wasn't actually thinking about the old style, underhanded and medieval operations that the Inquisition routinely engaged in (like the Sword of Schueler or the assassination of Hektor Daikyn). Although now that you mentioned it, while Duchairn is in absolute control of the Church of God Awaiting at present, there is no telling how he will handle the emergence of an actual opposition within the Church to his reformist policies and lenient attitude towards enforcement of the Proscriptions. Would he constantly marginalize such a group? Would he try to buy them off politically? Or would he try to co-opt them by putting their leaders in positions of actual authority, implementing the policies they want to implement and watch them crash against the impenetrable wall of reality? Either way has risks.

But what I was thinking about was something that Merlin said in that conversation I mentioned above about a counter-reformation movement. I was thinking more along the lines of said determined vicar cultivating contacts among the remaining Temple Loyalists in a place like Siddarmark, building up their standing in their societies (despite the suspicion and hatred they would need to contend with), move them toward political activism and form a Temple Loyalist Party of Siddarmark, one whose platform fully accepts responsibility for the sins of the Temple and the Loyalists during the Jihad ("hey, even the Grand Vicar has made a public confession of those"), which adamantly rejects any new Charisian innovations ("just because Clyntahn allowed them in the Jihad, doesn't make them acceptable in God's eyes") and which continually pushes for true reconciliation with the Church and reunification under its political authority ("the Church has paid for Clyntahn's sins long enough and has done its penance - Now we must return to its loving arms and follow its lead"). Given that both Charis and Siddarmark are moving towards less monarchism and oligarchy and more democracy, and given their promises of religious toleration, the emergence of such a political party would be inevitable.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad (Spoilers)
Post by saber964   » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:02 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote: We know Harchongese nobles were quite capable of seeing trained serfs as a threat because we know they didn't want them trained in the first place.

Rayno certainly counts it as a failure that he couldn't get the training stopped, and I think it specifically says that he's worried about possible rebellion.


Technically, he doesn't worry about anything anymore. :(



He's probably worrying that any grave he goes into will be desecrated. besides what color daisies he happens to be pushing up or whether the worms will gag on his carcas.
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Re: Safehold post-Jihad
Post by WeberFan   » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:34 am

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phillies wrote:The Mighty Host will, I expect, return to Harchong.

Ah yes....

Back to Harchong...

It strikes me that many (if not most) of the MH was drawn from North Harchong (no specific textev for that, just my impression). But I'm also convinced that the Northern Harchongese don't want them back now that they've been "corrupted" in the service of the Church...

IMHO, MHoG will end up in South Harchong. No specific textev (again), but my impression was that (relatively speaking of course - definitely NOT in absolute terms) South Harchong is more "progressive" than North Harchong.

Even if THAT happens, their lives will be difficult, but I think that if they show up in South Harchong, they'll have a corrupting influence on local society.

And given North Harchong's inability to project military / inquisitorial power into South Harchong (the Gulf of Dohlar might as well be a "firewall" to Northern Harchongese influence) I sense that South Harchong will accelerate in its progressivness over time.
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