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The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me-SNERK
Post by Louis R   » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:06 pm

Louis R
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Posts: 1293
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Recall the final confrontation between Langhorne and Shan Wei: Langhorne and Bedard were all but chortling "Ve haf our little vays to make you comply!" I find it extremely unlikely that Langhorne didn't know exactly what was going to happen next, and the prompt announcement of the 'fall of Shan Wei' - one of the angels was passing on the news when Zion went BOOM! - and careful preservation of an handful of witnesses to the consequences of ticking off The Boss just underlines that.

That Chihiro was a fruitloop who would go as far as it took to hold on to the power he'd inherited, of course, is less open to question. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the person who actually oversaw the building of the original OBS, and it's plausible that he actually pushed the button. It's possible that he did it without waiting for further orders, but not probable it was entirely without orders. Once in control, it's very likely that he introduced changes to the Plan to make it more congenial to himself either because he was simply a natural reign-of-terror sort or because they assured his hold on power. Or both, of course.

That deviation from the Plan may have been the cause for the mutiny, if some saw it as undermining the long-term viability of the COGA. Alternatively, of course, it may have been good old-fashioned self-interest or self-preservation in those who saw Chihiro's rule as a threat or an opportunity. "Langhorne wouldn't do that! It was all Chihiro!" strikes me as wishful thinking and/or a justification and means of attracting supporters, depending on the motivation of those saying it.

PeterZ wrote:SNERK

I am not certain at all about this, but I recall some doubts that Langhorne ordered the destruction of Alexandria. Now let's assume for a moment that Langhorne didn't order the strike, but Chihiro did.

Commodore Pei gains admittance to see Langhorne and confronts him about the strike. Langehorn states he didn't order it. Commodore Pei doesn't believe him and nukes them all. There is no record of the exchange, nor anyone alive to recount what transpired. Chirhiro and Shueler could have supported any interpretation of the events that transpired. Further assuming Shueler didn't know the truth, Chihiro could have planted enough doubt to pull Shueler along.

Toss in the fact that forces loyal to the Commodore had secreted away sufficient production capacity to almost pull off the revolt. Had they been able to deny Chihiro and Shueler the use of Hamlicar, they would have won. Now, Shueler can believe there was indeed a conspiracy against the command team. He can believe this because it was true, there was not just one but two conspiracies.

By the time Cody comes to Shueler with his concerns, the rebels were pretty much defeated. Shueler either believes he has no options but to accept Chihiro did indeed start this war or is given no option. In either case Chihiro kills Cody and Shueler finds a way to give his descendants the Stone and the Key. Shuler sets his descendants on the mission to keep the CoGA honest and lets them know there will be a Return.

Still not sure what will Return. If it is Chihiro's digital personality, why not leave it there to be ruler after his body dies? If a PICA, again why not leave it? Biological bodies couldn't survive long enough. If it's an AI, why not a digital copy of one of the command crew?

The one scenario I see, is that Shueler got a concession from Chihiro to keep either one or both of their personalities in storage until the Return. Those personalities could have been stored in the Temple or in Hamlicar. If Shueler succeeded in retaining Hamlicar, there is a good chance that he was largely convinced Chihiro's plan was not best for Safehold. If the personalities are stored in the Temple, Sheueler was likely still open to accepting Chihiro's plan.

In any case, I can't wait to start the next story arc.
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Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me-SNERK
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:35 am

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I think there was an element within Commodore Pei's people who were going "why did our boss do that?"

While Commodore Pei was openly loyal to Langhorne, they may have known about clashes between Pei and Chihiro.

IIRC David Weber has said that both sides in the "War Against The Fallen" basically supported Langhorne's plan. IE The powerful Church that will limit growth of technology on Safehold.

IMO it would be easy for Commodore Pei's people to see Chihiro as the "Real Big Bad".

While I don't remember it being mentioned, it could have been easy for some of them to think not only did Chihiro "push the button" on Shan Wei and her people but Chihiro was the actual person who killed Langhorne along with Pei.

Of course, Cody was still a believer in the Angelhood of Langhorne so what he was told by the person who captured him was geared to "what Cody might believe".

Even if the "Demon" believed Langhorne did push the button, it might have been easier for Cody to believe in the "evil Chihiro" than the "evil Langhorne".


Louis R wrote:Recall the final confrontation between Langhorne and Shan Wei: Langhorne and Bedard were all but chortling "Ve haf our little vays to make you comply!" I find it extremely unlikely that Langhorne didn't know exactly what was going to happen next, and the prompt announcement of the 'fall of Shan Wei' - one of the angels was passing on the news when Zion went BOOM! - and careful preservation of an handful of witnesses to the consequences of ticking off The Boss just underlines that.

That Chihiro was a fruitloop who would go as far as it took to hold on to the power he'd inherited, of course, is less open to question. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the person who actually oversaw the building of the original OBS, and it's plausible that he actually pushed the button. It's possible that he did it without waiting for further orders, but not probable it was entirely without orders. Once in control, it's very likely that he introduced changes to the Plan to make it more congenial to himself either because he was simply a natural reign-of-terror sort or because they assured his hold on power. Or both, of course.

That deviation from the Plan may have been the cause for the mutiny, if some saw it as undermining the long-term viability of the COGA. Alternatively, of course, it may have been good old-fashioned self-interest or self-preservation in those who saw Chihiro's rule as a threat or an opportunity. "Langhorne wouldn't do that! It was all Chihiro!" strikes me as wishful thinking and/or a justification and means of attracting supporters, depending on the motivation of those saying it.

PeterZ wrote:SNERK

I am not certain at all about this, but I recall some doubts that Langhorne ordered the destruction of Alexandria. Now let's assume for a moment that Langhorne didn't order the strike, but Chihiro did.

Commodore Pei gains admittance to see Langhorne and confronts him about the strike. Langehorn states he didn't order it. Commodore Pei doesn't believe him and nukes them all. There is no record of the exchange, nor anyone alive to recount what transpired. Chirhiro and Shueler could have supported any interpretation of the events that transpired. Further assuming Shueler didn't know the truth, Chihiro could have planted enough doubt to pull Shueler along.

Toss in the fact that forces loyal to the Commodore had secreted away sufficient production capacity to almost pull off the revolt. Had they been able to deny Chihiro and Shueler the use of Hamlicar, they would have won. Now, Shueler can believe there was indeed a conspiracy against the command team. He can believe this because it was true, there was not just one but two conspiracies.

By the time Cody comes to Shueler with his concerns, the rebels were pretty much defeated. Shueler either believes he has no options but to accept Chihiro did indeed start this war or is given no option. In either case Chihiro kills Cody and Shueler finds a way to give his descendants the Stone and the Key. Shuler sets his descendants on the mission to keep the CoGA honest and lets them know there will be a Return.

Still not sure what will Return. If it is Chihiro's digital personality, why not leave it there to be ruler after his body dies? If a PICA, again why not leave it? Biological bodies couldn't survive long enough. If it's an AI, why not a digital copy of one of the command crew?

The one scenario I see, is that Shueler got a concession from Chihiro to keep either one or both of their personalities in storage until the Return. Those personalities could have been stored in the Temple or in Hamlicar. If Shueler succeeded in retaining Hamlicar, there is a good chance that he was largely convinced Chihiro's plan was not best for Safehold. If the personalities are stored in the Temple, Sheueler was likely still open to accepting Chihiro's plan.

In any case, I can't wait to start the next story arc.
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me-SNERK
Post by Louis R   » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:36 pm

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1293
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

You know, it's occurred to me to wonder if that demon wasn't in fact truly demonic - one of Shan Wei's other retreads. From the sound of things, to do what he did with Khody he would have needed not just some access to technology but considerable understanding of what he was doing. Of course, that may just be an effect of the rather sketchy account we've been given, but it gives me to think.

DrakBibliophile wrote:I think there was an element within Commodore Pei's people who were going "why did our boss do that?"

While Commodore Pei was openly loyal to Langhorne, they may have known about clashes between Pei and Chihiro.

IIRC David Weber has said that both sides in the "War Against The Fallen" basically supported Langhorne's plan. IE The powerful Church that will limit growth of technology on Safehold.

IMO it would be easy for Commodore Pei's people to see Chihiro as the "Real Big Bad".

While I don't remember it being mentioned, it could have been easy for some of them to think not only did Chihiro "push the button" on Shan Wei and her people but Chihiro was the actual person who killed Langhorne along with Pei.

Of course, Cody was still a believer in the Angelhood of Langhorne so what he was told by the person who captured him was geared to "what Cody might believe".

Even if the "Demon" believed Langhorne did push the button, it might have been easier for Cody to believe in the "evil Chihiro" than the "evil Langhorne".


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Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me
Post by Salisria   » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:35 pm

Salisria
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:08 am

Whitecold wrote:My personal opinion is that bringing the Ptolemaic model back is a stupid move, because it provides something that is disprovable, and you can still set the sun into the center of the universe and keep your tiny comfortable world view. Any accurate observation of planets will reveal the discrepancy, unless you already throw in epicicles into the holy writ, and these need an awful amount of math to describe in the first place.

The Roman numerals may hinder math some, but the Romans were awesome engineers, which requires practical math, and mathematical developments are anyway very hard to prevent. Proscribing math without delivering the recipe of exactly what you have to do is definitely non-trivial.


I suspect that the primary reason Langhorne specified a Ptolemaic system would be to specify a sphere of fixed stars rather than any specific paths for the planets. We have zero evidence of the pseudoscience of astrology being followed on Safehold. Without astrology there's no practical reason for astronomical observations of planetary motion.

Celestial navigation is completely compatible with the concept of a sphere of fixed stars, and given the practical focus of Charisian scholarship, I don't see Ptolemaic astronomy as being a problem for the Holy Writ.

Fossils are problematic unless Langhorne posits that the Day of Creation is the day humanity and creatures specifically created for the use of humanity were created rather than the beginning of the universe. And if he does posit that, then the fossil record supports rather than contradicts the Holy Writ by demonstrating that humanity and the creatures created for humans to use in accordance with God's Plan were indeed created on that day.
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Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me
Post by Salisria   » Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:08 pm

Salisria
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:08 am

taylorandrian wrote:If Safehold is actually the innermost planet, then the Ptolemaic model presented by Langhorne can't be disproved by looking at the phases of planets closer to the sun because there aren't any.

Planetary phases of the inner planets aren't a problem for the Ptolemaic model.
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Re: The Holy Writ - Something's Bugging Me
Post by vocalkeny   » Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:22 am

vocalkeny
Midshipman

Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:15 am

I think disproving the Ptolemaic System would need Langhorne and Co. tohave not looked up the discrepancies and accounted for them.
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