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eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>

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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by CRC   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:55 am

CRC
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Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by CRC   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:05 am

CRC
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Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:03 pm

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CRC wrote:Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...


Not true. David mentions the impact on age that naval officers experience due to traveling at relative velocities. The impact wasn't large, but he acknowledged it existed.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by Louis R   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:23 pm

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{note: CRC messed up the snipping, and attributed a McGuiness text to SYED. Corrected below.}

McGuiness has triggered some interesting thoughts, but there's a major problem with his analysis: no one on Safehold outside the command crew would be capable of following the trajectory of the 'Dawn Star', and therefore there's nothing in what Clyntahn or anyone else knew that precludes it being dropped into the star per Langhorne's plan.

If TF tech used fusion thrusters for orbital maneuvering like the Honorverse does, a 'departure in glory' would be the natural consequence of pulling out at night - and for a last run it would be trivial to add a bit to the exhaust to enhance radiative cooling and make it _really_ spectacular. Even if it didn't, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to arrange a light show if they wanted one, or 'glory' could be figurative. We don't even know if the departure was announced before hand. Since we do know that there wasn't any announcement of plans to return, where the Dawn Star departed to was probably left a mystery although anyone who knew their Writ would be able to figure it out for themselves: beyond the Sphere of the Stars [or however the Writ names it].

So we still know nothing beyond 'it was in orbit; it's not there now'

CRC wrote:
McGuiness wrote:Anyone else notice the line "the Archangels’ servitors had withdrawn to the Dawn Star and it had departed in glory?" Judging by what Clyntahn knew, the Hamilcar didn't fly into the sun...[/quote}

That, I believe, is a key point. However since cryo can't be used for 1000 years, it has to be some form of AI, or downloaded personality.

No matter what Merlin does in the next several years, if the Hamilcar shows up and doesn't like what he is doing, they are in a heap of trouble...
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by Louis R   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:16 pm

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::peers at dates::
::refills sprinkler::

Ah, yes. I guess you missed the last go-around on this one.

The idea has it's supporters and it's detractors, and is best classified as 'not proven' since we don't have enough textev to make a call one way or the other. The big unknown is whether TF ship technology was capable of reaching and sustaining velocities in excess of .999c and surviving journeys of c. 800ly at those speeds. The huge negative is that large objects moving at >>.999c in the interstellar medium are going to be quite spectacular - and drawing a straight line back to the Kau Zhi system right in the middle of the period when it was postulated that _if_ the Gbaba were looking for survivors at all, they would be in the neighbourhood. Of course, Chihiro and Co. may well have been stupid enough to go ahead and try it, and not notice what they were doing - and have the blind dumb luck to get away with it - but I have trouble believing they'd have won the WatF if they were.

CRC wrote:Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:52 pm

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CRC wrote:Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...


I can't recall any of Weber's ships that can chase c that way.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by CRC   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:48 pm

CRC
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Louis R wrote:::peers at dates::
::refills sprinkler::

Ah, yes. I guess you missed the last go-around on this one.

The idea has it's supporters and it's detractors, and is best classified as 'not proven' since we don't have enough textev to make a call one way or the other. The big unknown is whether TF ship technology was capable of reaching and sustaining velocities in excess of .999c and surviving journeys of c. 800ly at those speeds. The huge negative is that large objects moving at >>.999c in the interstellar medium are going to be quite spectacular - and drawing a straight line back to the Kau Zhi system right in the middle of the period when it was postulated that _if_ the Gbaba were looking for survivors at all, they would be in the neighbourhood. Of course, Chihiro and Co. may well have been stupid enough to go ahead and try it, and not notice what they were doing - and have the blind dumb luck to get away with it - but I have trouble believing they'd have won the WatF if they were.

CRC wrote:Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...


Well darn.

That kills that idea...didn't think about the .999998c required and the problem with interstellar gas irradiating the entire crew - unless Federation tech has a much different shielding approach.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by Louis R   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:56 pm

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Most people don't realise just what it takes to get that kind of time dilation. However, IIRC the Fasset Drive used in Path of the Fury/In Fury Born does get up into that regime just before the ships jump into hyper. Guess I should twist my arm and go check ;)


Loren Pechtel wrote:
CRC wrote:Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...


I can't recall any of Weber's ships that can chase c that way.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 pm

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Louis R wrote:Most people don't realise just what it takes to get that kind of time dilation. However, IIRC the Fasset Drive used in Path of the Fury/In Fury Born does get up into that regime just before the ships jump into hyper. Guess I should twist my arm and go check ;)


Loren Pechtel wrote:I can't recall any of Weber's ships that can chase c that way.


The Fasset drive will slow your clocks quite a bit but not enough to pull off something like this. I had forgotten about it, it's by far the closest any of his books come to c.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:02 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:The Fasset drive will slow your clocks quite a bit but not enough to pull off something like this. I had forgotten about it, it's by far the closest any of his books come to c.


IIRC, the Fasset drive CAN get you that close to c, but no one bothers under normal operations because you still have to turn around and decellerate. And accelerations are high enough that turn around will come along FAR sooner than hitting that close to c.

Also, the Fasset drive creates a black hole that makes the perfect shield against c fractional dust impacts... as long as you're accelerating. As soon as you start decelerating, you've turned around and put that black hole BEHIND YOU, meaning that you have vulnerable unshielded hull facing potential c fractional debris impacts.
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