Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by n7axw   » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:30 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4431
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Jonathan_S wrote:
n7axw wrote:It would be interesting to see Merlin go out to the Castaway islands to set up an electric grid and see if there is a response.

That there is a risk in doing so is true, but it is the same risk Merlin run with testing steam which was also deemed outside of the proscriptions.

I agree that the social and political situation makes it impossible to do publically.

Don

-
I need to reread the rest of the books, so I'm a little fuzzy on timing... But wasn't the steam trial made before Merlin learned of the prophecy that the Archangles would return in 1000 years?

I thought that knowledge that there was now know. To be something under the Temple scheduled to come back that also made the Inner Circle concerned about it being woken early should the Orbital system get tripped.

(Or am I mixing things up?)


You have it straight. When Merlin's test produced no reaction from the OBS, Father Paityr was brought into the inner circle in part to secure his cooperation in introducing steam.

The 1000 year return of the archangels was something the inner circle learned from Father Paityr that was part of the Wylsynn family traditions. It has not been colaborated from other sourses and has to be treated as a possibility that could happen rather than something that is assured.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:57 am

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

The most we know about the "Return of the Archangels" is that the Wylsynn family traditions about it date to very shortly after the departure of the Archangels.

As in, the return are mentioned in Wylsynn family documents that date to that time.

So we're not talking about a tradition that started centuries after the Archangels departed.


n7axw wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
I need to reread the rest of the books, so I'm a little fuzzy on timing... But wasn't the steam trial made before Merlin learned of the prophecy that the Archangles would return in 1000 years?

I thought that knowledge that there was now know. To be something under the Temple scheduled to come back that also made the Inner Circle concerned about it being woken early should the Orbital system get tripped.

(Or am I mixing things up?)


You have it straight. When Merlin's test produced no reaction from the OBS, Father Paityr was brought into the inner circle in part to secure his cooperation in introducing steam.

The 1000 year return of the archangels was something the inner circle learned from Father Paityr that was part of the Wylsynn family traditions. It has not been colaborated from other sourses and has to be treated as a possibility that could happen rather than something that is assured.

Don

-
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by thanatos   » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:18 pm

thanatos
Commander

Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: United States

DrakBibliophile wrote:The most we know about the "Return of the Archangels" is that the Wylsynn family traditions about it date to very shortly after the departure of the Archangels.

As in, the return are mentioned in Wylsynn family documents that date to that time.

So we're not talking about a tradition that started centuries after the Archangels departed.



Speaking of which, the question of what's under the temple has been analyzed, probed and turned around from every angle, both here and in the story itself, with only RFC knowing the full answer. Given what we've known since Nynian's revelation in HFQ, Wylsynn's revelation in HFAF and the references in the Book of Chihiro made by Bishop Mylz Halcom in BHD, We have to conclude that the surviving command crew knew they'd need some sort of long term control mechanism, one that lasted after their deaths.

RFC has stated that the original plan under Langhorne was to have the "Archangels" be more hands on while instituting a church that was less top-heavy with "mortals" being given more power locally (with "angelic" oversight). That plan went out the airlock when Commodore Pei nuked the original Temple and his adherents among the naval and marine personnel launched a guerrilla war against Chihiro and Schueler. While they were victorious eventually, they needed to modify the plan to account for the disruptions of both Kau-yung's pocket nuke and the War Against the Fallen. But they would also have to take into consideration the possibility that they missed one or more of the "Fallen", some leftover technology, one of their industrial modules or that someone left a written record that contradicted the party line. They would need some way to deal with the possibility that any surviving Fallen might be waiting for them to die and launch a new war without them.

So I think Merlin and Nimue are overthinking the possibilities. He assumes that if Chihiro and Schueler could create a PICA without the 10-day limit, they would have used it then and kept them active afterwards (thus making Nimue's mission impossible). He assumes a virtual personality in a VR environment would have reacted to the corruption of the Vicarite or that the fear of boredom would have deterred them from using one. Chihiro and Schueler still needed something to deal with the threat I mentioned and they may have been willing to set up something a bit more limited than an unlimited PICA or a constantly operating AI or virtual personality - one that only resurfaces once in a millennium. And when you think about it, many religions on Earth today have a deadline - the second coming of Christ for Christians, the coming of the Messiah in Judaism, the return of Mohammed to judge the world etc. In many ways, these "End of Days" myths serve as a way to both give hope for a better, more divine future and to frighten the malcontent into obedience. And unlike these religions, the religion established by Chihiro and Schueler can actually work such an "End of Days" scenario to correct any deviations from the plan. Indeed, one of the liturgies of the CoGA states "May the Day Awaited come."
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by McGuiness   » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:33 am

McGuiness
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1187
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:35 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA

SYED wrote:The church has been controlling innovations, so I wonder if they might release their records now. In an effort to maintain superiority. Stuff that might actually break the proscriptions, once they do, Charis can simply copy them.
Duchairn is HIGHLY unlikely to be very pro-innovation. With the Jihad behind it, the CoGA under his leadership is unlikely to do much in the way of innovation simply because every innovator will STILL have the "Reformed and kinder" Inquisition looking over his shoulder and breathing down his neck. And since the CoGA still believes in putting people to the Question and the Punishment, if I were an innovator, I would NOT set up shop in the Temple Lands! The EoC is quite innovation friendly and has better weather as well. ;)

I'll grant that new technologies will have a much easier time gaining approval and will require smaller bribes than would have been required pre-Merlin, but other than embracing steam engines and everything Charis created during the war, the CoGA will innovate slowly.]

Charis will go on happily inventing of course, since the Inquisition serves as the patent office and Paityr Wylsynn is more than happy to twist the Proscriptions until they scream. That means the CoGA and the other schisms of the Church will HAVE to eventually accept and implement the advancements approved by the Church of Charis.

FWIW I foresee at least the following schisms: the Church of Siddarmark, and the Church of Dohlar (likely) Harchong, (very likely since they think Duchairn is WAY too permissive and liked things the way they were) and even a Church of Desnair, if only to keep all that lovely gold at home! :lol:

So no, any high tech that may be known only to the CoGA due to its access to the Temple isn't likely to be released - otherwise Clyntahn would have opened any archive of secret technology and granted a blanket dispensation to all of it that might have helped the war effort.

I realize the Inquisition has some secret tools that work in the Temple - most if not all rooms are bugged, there are some holograms that can be viewed, and they have special tools to override the locks on the magical doors that open and shut themselves. (There's more but that's what came to mind at the moment.) Nothing that will help when the inevitable religious wars erupt.

I hope the Big Reveal happens before too many people die needlessly, and that it's dramatic enough to get through to the most fanatical Temple Loyalist.

Anyone else notice the line "the Archangels’ servitors had withdrawn to the Dawn Star and it had departed in glory?" Judging by what Clyntahn knew, the Hamilcar didn't fly into the sun...

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by zyffyr   » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:09 am

zyffyr
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:26 pm

McGuiness wrote:
SYED wrote:The church has been controlling innovations, so I wonder if they might release their records now. In an effort to maintain superiority. Stuff that might actually break the proscriptions, once they do, Charis can simply copy them.
Duchairn is HIGHLY unlikely to be very pro-innovation. With the Jihad behind it, the CoGA under his leadership is unlikely to do much in the way of innovation simply because every innovator will STILL have the "Reformed and kinder" Inquisition looking over his shoulder and breathing down his neck. And since the CoGA still believes in putting people to the Question and the Punishment, if I were an innovator, I would NOT set up shop in the Temple Lands! The EoC is quite innovation friendly and has better weather as well. ;)



Actually, textev (Pg 724 and 725 of the hardback, dunno exact location in the digital versions) is that the only reason that Duchairn didn't abolish The Punishment outright is that it is established by the Holy Writ itself, so he did the next best thing and put so many restrictions on it that it is unlikely to ever actually be used again.
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:05 am

isaac_newton
Captain of the List

Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:37 am
Location: Brighton, UK

zyffyr wrote:
McGuiness wrote:SNIP Duchairn is HIGHLY unlikely to be very pro-innovation. With the Jihad behind it, the CoGA under his leadership is unlikely to do much in the way of innovation simply because every innovator will STILL have the "Reformed and kinder" Inquisition looking over his shoulder and breathing down his neck. And since the CoGA still believes in putting people to the Question and the Punishment, if I were an innovator, I would NOT set up shop in the Temple Lands! The EoC is quite innovation friendly and has better weather as well. ;)



Actually, textev (Pg 724 and 725 of the hardback, dunno exact location in the digital versions) is that the only reason that Duchairn didn't abolish The Punishment outright is that it is established by the Holy Writ itself, so he did the next best thing and put so many restrictions on it that it is unlikely to ever actually be used again.


South Harchong has a nice climate and is becoming quite suitable for innovators too!
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by CRC   » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:13 pm

CRC
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:45 am

McGuiness wrote:
SYED wrote:Anyone else notice the line "the Archangels’ servitors had withdrawn to the Dawn Star and it had departed in glory?" Judging by what Clyntahn knew, the Hamilcar didn't fly into the sun...


That, I believe, is a key point. However since cryo can't be used for 1000 years, it has to be some form of AI, or downloaded personality.

No matter what Merlin does in the next several years, if the Hamilcar shows up and doesn't like what he is doing, they are in a heap of trouble...
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by n7axw   » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:26 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4431
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

CRC wrote:
No matter what Merlin does in the next several years, if the Hamilcar shows up and doesn't like what he is doing, they are in a heap of trouble...


True. I suspect that it depends on how much difficulty RFC wants to create for our heros and how many books he wants to write to work through those difficulties.

Just a thought. If the return of the archangels happens on the schedule we have now, it will come prior to the point where the next book kicks in. Interesting, humm....

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by McGuiness   » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:42 pm

McGuiness
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1187
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:35 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA

CRC wrote:
McGuinness wrote:Anyone else notice the line "the Archangels’ servitors had withdrawn to the Dawn Star and it had departed in glory?" Judging by what Clyntahn knew, the Hamilcar didn't fly into the sun...
That, I believe, is a key point. However since cryo can't be used for 1000 years, it has to be some form of AI, or downloaded personality.

No matter what Merlin does in the next several years, if the Hamilcar shows up and doesn't like what he is doing, they are in a heap of trouble...
Merlin has a plan -- if there's enough time before the archangels return in whatever form they reappear.

Merlin said "unless we can manage that [removing the OBS] and get the industrial plant in Nimue’s Cave up and running and replicating itself—with at least a decade or so to spare—we’re still screwed. If we could pull that off, and if we had that decade to work with, we wouldn’t really care if the ‘Archangels’ decided to put in an actual physical reappearance of some sort.” He smiled coldly. “Give me four or five years of open Federation-level tech to work with, and I will guarantee that anything the ‘Archangels’ bring with them gets blown to hell and gone. And I can think of very few things that would give me more personal satisfaction!

Of course that's the best case scenario, which leads to his back up plan of infecting the entire planet with the innovation bug...

“But if we can’t do that, we have to play for the possibility—the probability, I hope!—that whatever turns up calling itself an ‘Archangel’ isn’t quite as lunatic as Langhorne was when he pulled the trigger on the Alexandria Enclave. I have to think they wouldn’t be coming back at all if they didn’t want to make sure the human race survives. And killing the human race themselves wouldn’t strike me as the best way to do that, which is why we want the ‘genie out of the bottle.’ Spreading the violation of the Proscriptions—of their purpose, the thing they were supposed to achieve, at least—as broadly as possible, even if their word was still technically observed was always part of our gradualist strategy. But Paityr’s warning’s lent that strategy a lot more urgency, because if we can spread the new technology broadly enough that it would require a planet-wide application of ‘rakurai’ to eradicate all the threats to Langhorne’s grand plan, then anyone but a raving lunatic would realize that plan’s failed. We’re in no position to predict how he might react, but I think it’s likely any non-lunatic would see no option but to engineer as soft a landing to the Proscriptions’ collapse as possible.
“That’s why the economic implications of Ehdwyrd’s railroads and of steam-powered maritime trade are far more dangerous to the Church in the long term than any warship or artillery piece. But let’s be honest—it’s always possible for someone to cut off his economic nose to spite his face on religious grounds. God knows it was done often enough back on Old Earth! The ultimate consequences would be disastrous, and any realm that chose to do that would be a complete political and economic nonfactor within a generation. But that doesn’t mean they won’t do it, and I can easily imagine a reactionary ‘counter reformation’ throwing up all sorts of obstacles to stretch the process out even farther. Quite possibly for longer than we have before that return visit we’re worrying about.


And to encourage all the nations of Safehold to continue to innovate...

“Enter the King Haarahlds.”

Cayleb explained "no ruler who’s smarter than a rock is going to be able to miss its point. Without equivalent technology, no realm can survive against anyone who adopts it, and no one out there—from Mahrys of Desnair, to Rahnyld of Dohlar, to Emperor Waisu’s bureaucrats—hell, to that idiot Zhames in Delferahk!—is going to decide to trust that none of his enemies will build it. For that matter, they’ll know damned well we’re going to—that we already have—and even Greyghor, here in Siddarmark, is going to have to worry about the possibility that some perfectly legitimate dispute will someday arise between the Republic and us.
“So that’s what the King Haarahlds are, Nynian,” the Emperor of Charis said levelly, meeting her eyes across the study. “They’ll do the job at Gorath—that’s for damn sure—but just like you said, so would the Cities. They’re not Earl Sharpfield’s doorknockers; they’re Merlin’s, and the ‘door’ he has in mind is a hell of a lot more important than Gorath.”


They aren't just the most powerful ships on the planet, they're a symbol of what man can achieve through industry and innovation. Any country that wants to compete with Charis on the seas is going to have to figure out how to build one, and that means developing the manufacturing capability of the Delthak works. Millions of Safeholdians innovating away, creating new devices and technologies, with railroads connecting cities and hauling freight across entire continents in days rather than months. Once Safehold has widespread steam technology, there's no going back unless a returning Archangel decides to Rakurai the human race out of existence, and even Langhorne wouldn't be that fanatical!

But I'd prefer for OWL to have time to replicate his manufacturing plant many times over, so Safehold can meet whatever is coming with TF technology... :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
Top
Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning>
Post by CRC   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:54 am

CRC
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:45 am

Had an epiphany on this morning's walk. Don't need cryo, don't need AI, the original command crew with Chohiro and crew can show up with the Hamilcar at the 1000 year mark easy!

How? Here's a hint. A "Forever War" relativistic shuttle. (now you all can start reading Haldeman again...its in the end of the book.) Something Weber has never had in his books, so its new to him and gets everything back at the 1000 year mark with no muss, no fuss...
Top

Return to Safehold