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Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian

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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by Thrandir   » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:32 am

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DrakBibliophile wrote:IMO there were hints that Nynian was more than normally interested in Merlin's "alternate self" that she had met & spent time with in Zion.

Once she realized that the person she had met in Zion was the same person as Merlin, IMO it was just a matter of time.

Mind you, I was mildly surprised that Merlin felt the same toward her.



I totally agree Drakk.
Though in the book there are more than a few times in the book where the others appear surprised about Nynian being with Merlin - for me it wasn't a huge surprise as I thought this was going to happen from oblique references in HFQ.
The romantic in me would love to have seen how it come about as I think it would have caught Merlin a little on the hop that Nynian would have those feelings for him.
Yes these grew the longer they spent together but I don't think Merlin was even looking at her in that light and it would have been fantastic to see how she 'sprung' it on him ... lol
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by McGuiness   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:35 am

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Remember the scene where Merlin was speaking with Ohlyvya and she asked him "Was Nimue ever in love?" It's a great scene and shows that how growing up in a society that knew it was doomed, Nimue never developed romantic relationships. People had even stopped having children by the time she was born.

So romance was as foreign a concept to Nimue as Safehold's long-term practice of surrendering in battle and being allowed to live. As for her/his sexual identity, once Nimue configured her PICA to male, at one point early in OAR he decides that since he's playing the part of being male full time anyway, he may as well think of himself as being one. It made things less complicated during his visits at Madame Anzhelyk's at least! :lol:

I noted a rather dramatic shift in his thinking regarding Aivah when she waylaid him in his room at the beginning of HFQ. For the first time we got his personal impressions of Aivah as a woman - with him suddenly thinking that she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever met. At that point a whole bunch of us got suspicious. Their date on snowshoes en route to reading Kohdy's journal was a further hint that romance was in the cards.

I found it rather surprising that we suddenly had scenes of them cuddled on sofas, calling each other "love," and in the sack together while Merlin took his "down time." (Anyone who is giggling sophomorically right now has a dirty mind!) :lol:

I'm glad to see they found each other since she'll help keep him sane, and when Merlin needs to "die" so he can return as a much younger character, OWL can create a PICA for Aivah as well, and they can battle and scheme together until mankind tosses off the manacles of the CoGA, heads back to the stars, and wipes the Gbaba from the face of the universe.

(You may all sigh happily and say "ahhhhh...") :D

Now Nimue needs to find a boyfriend... Any guesses?
Last edited by McGuiness on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:39 pm

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Another thought on Merlin and Nynian.

Way back in the first book, Merlin thought about and discarded the idea of using the TF version of Prolong on his friends.

Admittedly part of the problem was that the Prolong drugs were likely unuseable after all that time but Merlin did think about the problem of his friends being seen to live longer than humanly possible.

But here's Nynian who is an expert in creating new identities for herself.

If Nynian is given the Prolong drugs, she could easily create a new identity for herself.

So Merlin may decide to create a new batch of the Prolong drugs for Nynian. :D :D :D :D
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by McGuiness   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:34 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Another thought on Merlin and Nynian.

Way back in the first book, Merlin thought about and discarded the idea of using the TF version of Prolong on his friends.

Admittedly part of the problem was that the Prolong drugs were likely unusable after all that time but Merlin did think about the problem of his friends being seen to live longer than humanly possible.

But here's Nynian who is an expert in creating new identities for herself.

If Nynian is given the Prolong drugs, she could easily create a new identity for herself.

So Merlin may decide to create a new batch of the Prolong drugs for Nynian. :D :D :D :D
Great point!

(You may now all sigh happily and say "ahhhhh...") :D

On the other hand there are probably centuries left until last nest of Gbaba are destroyed, and I get the feeling that after growing up without even having the prospect falling in love and raising a family, both Merlin and Nimue are going to be "one and done" types. Unfortunately for their future spouses, they happen to PICAs.

That got me to thinking that Nimue Alban really should have had her DNA digitized... but wait, that almost had to be standard TF practice! That would have enabled scanning fetuses to scrub for any abnormalities or congenital defects, as well as identify the dead, etc.

So Operation Ark almost certainly had Lt. Alban's DNA on file. Not physical samples that would degrade, but a digitized copy, which given the proper tech could create living cells with Nimue's actual DNA. After all, it's just a matter of data storage (not a problem) and tools small enough to do the gene splicing. I expect that the technology for scanning existing DNA to digital copies and converting that data back to flesh and blood again was quite advanced in the TF, even with all the rules that I'm sure applied to it.

Given the weapons used by the TF military, it would be extremely useful in treating exposure to high doses of radiation for example, which is one reason the TFN probably made a normal practice of it even if the civilian administration didn't.

So yeah, I'd be willing to step out on a limb and say that Merlin and Aivah could have a sizeable passel of rug rats if they wanted to, especially if/when he gives her the TF prolong treatments. (Beats diamonds any day!)

Don't ask me how Nimue is going to give birth though! :lol:

(Yeah, yeah, clearly it will be a cesarean birth conducted by a seijin midwife. See, these plot complications almost solve themselves!) ;)

And if you were wondering how the Archangels were going to return... recorded personalities and growing clones of themselves as needed. (Which doesn't explain why no one who died in that lovely nuclear fireball with Langhorne was brought back. I guess Chihiro and company liked the view from the top, or better yet, the only copies of the command staff's DNA went up in smoke with them!) :lol:

And yes, I'll admit that if the megalomaniacs in charge of Operation Ark had that ability, they'd have used it. On the other hand, they had or could have had accessibility to PICAs (as Nahrmahn and OWL proved) and didn't use them - although I'd bet Langhorne may not have understood just how perfectly a last-model PICA mimicked real life, so the possibility for immortality that a PICA offered may not have been widely understood. RFC has his reasons... ;)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by John Prigent   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:42 pm

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I think we were told long ago that Merlin is a fully-functional male. So why wouldn't Nimue be a fully functional female, able to give birth in the usual way?
Cheers, John

McGuiness wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:Another thought on Merlin and Nynian.

Way back in the first book, Merlin thought about and discarded the idea of using the TF version of Prolong on his friends.

Admittedly part of the problem was that the Prolong drugs were likely unusable after all that time but Merlin did think about the problem of his friends being seen to live longer than humanly possible.

But here's Nynian who is an expert in creating new identities for herself.

If Nynian is given the Prolong drugs, she could easily create a new identity for herself.

So Merlin may decide to create a new batch of the Prolong drugs for Nynian. :D :D :D :D
Great point!

(You may now all sigh happily and say "ahhhhh...") :D

On the other hand there are probably centuries left until last nest of Gbaba are destroyed, and I get the feeling that after growing up without even having the prospect falling in love and raising a family, both Merlin and Nimue are going to be "one and done" types. Unfortunately for their future spouses, they happen to PICAs.

That got me to thinking that Nimue Alban really should have had her DNA digitized... but wait, that almost had to be standard TF practice! That would have enabled scanning fetuses to scrub for any abnormalities or congenital defects, as well as identify the dead, etc.

So Operation Ark almost certainly had Lt. Alban's DNA on file. Not physical samples that would degrade, but a digitized copy, which given the proper tech could create living cells with Nimue's actual DNA. After all, it's just a matter of data storage (not a problem) and tools small enough to do the gene splicing. I expect that the technology for scanning existing DNA to digital copies and converting that data back to flesh and blood again was quite advanced in the TF, even with all the rules that I'm sure applied to it.

Given the weapons used by the TF military, it would be extremely useful in treating exposure to high doses of radiation for example, which is one reason the TFN probably made a normal practice of it even if the civilian administration didn't.

So yeah, I'd be willing to step out on a limb and say that Merlin and Aivah could have a sizeable passel of rug rats if they wanted to, especially if/when he gives her the TF prolong treatments. (Beats diamonds any day!)

Don't ask me how Nimue is going to give birth though! :lol:

(Yeah, yeah, clearly it will be a cesarean birth conducted by a seijin midwife. See, these plot complications almost solve themselves!) ;)

And if you were wondering how the Archangels were going to return... recorded personalities and growing clones of themselves as needed. (Which doesn't explain why no one who died in that lovely nuclear fireball with Langhorne was brought back. I guess Chihiro and company liked the view from the top, or better yet, the only copies of the command staff's DNA went up in smoke with them!) :lol:

And yes, I'll admit that if the megalomaniacs in charge of Operation Ark had that ability, they'd have used it. On the other hand, they had or could have had accessibility to PICAs (as Nahrmahn and OWL proved) and didn't use them - although I'd bet Langhorne may not have understood just how perfectly a last-model PICA mimicked real life, so the possibility for immortality that a PICA offered may not have been widely understood. RFC has his reasons... ;)
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:04 pm

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IMO the Standard PICA would not contain an uterus.

The PICA were intended to used to enable humans to go into dangerous situations and to enable badly crippled humans to live a full-life.

The Terran Federation likely had plenty of artificial wombs and wouldn't see the necessity of including them in PICA.

As for Merlin being a "fully functional male", it's very unlikely that his PICA body was designed to actually get a woman pregnant for the same reasons that a Standard PICA wouldn't contain an uterus.

Great Idea but it's been hashed out long ago here. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



John Prigent wrote:I think we were told long ago that Merlin is a fully-functional male. So why wouldn't Nimue be a fully functional female, able to give birth in the usual way?
Cheers, John

McGuiness wrote:Great point!

(You may now all sigh happily and say "ahhhhh...") :D

On the other hand there are probably centuries left until last nest of Gbaba are destroyed, and I get the feeling that after growing up without even having the prospect falling in love and raising a family, both Merlin and Nimue are going to be "one and done" types. Unfortunately for their future spouses, they happen to PICAs.

That got me to thinking that Nimue Alban really should have had her DNA digitized... but wait, that almost had to be standard TF practice! That would have enabled scanning fetuses to scrub for any abnormalities or congenital defects, as well as identify the dead, etc.

So Operation Ark almost certainly had Lt. Alban's DNA on file. Not physical samples that would degrade, but a digitized copy, which given the proper tech could create living cells with Nimue's actual DNA. After all, it's just a matter of data storage (not a problem) and tools small enough to do the gene splicing. I expect that the technology for scanning existing DNA to digital copies and converting that data back to flesh and blood again was quite advanced in the TF, even with all the rules that I'm sure applied to it.

Given the weapons used by the TF military, it would be extremely useful in treating exposure to high doses of radiation for example, which is one reason the TFN probably made a normal practice of it even if the civilian administration didn't.

So yeah, I'd be willing to step out on a limb and say that Merlin and Aivah could have a sizeable passel of rug rats if they wanted to, especially if/when he gives her the TF prolong treatments. (Beats diamonds any day!)

Don't ask me how Nimue is going to give birth though! :lol:

(Yeah, yeah, clearly it will be a cesarean birth conducted by a seijin midwife. See, these plot complications almost solve themselves!) ;)

And if you were wondering how the Archangels were going to return... recorded personalities and growing clones of themselves as needed. (Which doesn't explain why no one who died in that lovely nuclear fireball with Langhorne was brought back. I guess Chihiro and company liked the view from the top, or better yet, the only copies of the command staff's DNA went up in smoke with them!) :lol:

And yes, I'll admit that if the megalomaniacs in charge of Operation Ark had that ability, they'd have used it. On the other hand, they had or could have had accessibility to PICAs (as Nahrmahn and OWL proved) and didn't use them - although I'd bet Langhorne may not have understood just how perfectly a last-model PICA mimicked real life, so the possibility for immortality that a PICA offered may not have been widely understood. RFC has his reasons... ;)
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by phillies   » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:54 pm

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In my opinion, Nimue Alban is still fairly fresh from being reanimated, is the same person she was before she was uploaded and then died, and is going to be 100% focused on building up to defeat the Gbaba, with no time for romantic foolishness, which she has long it seems rejected.

So what will she do? A few guesses here

Professor Nimue Alban, University of Charis center for advanced study

Nimue Alban, Vice President for Special Projects, and Special Assistant to Duke (iirc) Delthak

Governor Nimue Alban, Silverlode, and Chief Administrator, Silverlode Special Projects (moving resources to OWL or setting up a second OWL buried under Silverlode close to all the neat resources.

by and by Grand Admiral of the Starry Seas Nimue Alban, Star Fleet Safehold

Oh, and perhaps "South Harchong" will recover its "American" character.
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by Metalsaigon   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:40 am

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First time jumping on the boards here :D

I too was surprised by this turn of events and it made me think I missed some key event, but it appears to just be very subtle. Also, I have a few points of interest.

Its already been mentioned that certain characters who are theoretically immortal will kill themselves once those they loved still living die. Since Merlin and Nimue(2nd PICA), also maybe OWL, both have a higher mission in restarting the human race into a space oriented civilization; they would be unable to give up their guidance of Safehold.

That is not necessarily true in regards to those who were born on Safehold and spent the majority of their lives in(somewhat) ignorance of the possibility of immortality via digitizing or being PICA'd. In all likely hood, they would be unable to deal with living far beyond the average lifespan of a normal Safeholdian (Nynian), where as Merlin and Nimue were already consigned to knowing they were already dead at the end of the Terran Federation. This could be viewed as an opportunity of meaningful life that they never had access to while being destroyed by the Gbaba.

I also question how long Merlin and Nimue could continue to function sanely as a single uninterrupted being. I could personally maybe see them killing themselves every generation only to have a new fresh re-upload of the downloaded mind of Nimue under the new conditions.

Kind of went off a bit, but I still think its relevant.
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:57 pm

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Welcome! Post, discuss and be merry! Have a digital beverage of your choice on me and we all hope to see more posts.

While I agree with some of your post, I don't see either Merlin and Nimue rebooting. That appears to be too close to suiciding repeatedly. I just don't see that happening. They might shut down for good, but not before they defeat the Gbaba.

As for the love story, that seemed a natural progression between a very sensual woman devoted to the epitome of the greatersr seijin ever and the greatest seijin alive. Nynian will be drawn to Merlin because he is unique and extraordinary. Merlin will be drawn to her because no one else will be drawn to him and love him as honestly. Everyone else that he could love will be less prepared to accept him as he is.

I thought Nynian's opening gambit of appearing in his room and dropping her secret was perfect. The exchange of information while flirting with taking off her shoes was delightful. She cast her line in and masterfully maneuvered the fly around Merlin until he took it cheerfully.
Metalsaigon wrote:First time jumping on the boards here :D

I too was surprised by this turn of events and it made me think I missed some key event, but it appears to just be very subtle. Also, I have a few points of interest.

Its already been mentioned that certain characters who are theoretically immortal will kill themselves once those they loved still living die. Since Merlin and Nimue(2nd PICA), also maybe OWL, both have a higher mission in restarting the human race into a space oriented civilization; they would be unable to give up their guidance of Safehold.

That is not necessarily true in regards to those who were born on Safehold and spent the majority of their lives in(somewhat) ignorance of the possibility of immortality via digitizing or being PICA'd. In all likely hood, they would be unable to deal with living far beyond the average lifespan of a normal Safeholdian (Nynian), where as Merlin and Nimue were already consigned to knowing they were already dead at the end of the Terran Federation. This could be viewed as an opportunity of meaningful life that they never had access to while being destroyed by the Gbaba.

I also question how long Merlin and Nimue could continue to function sanely as a single uninterrupted being. I could personally maybe see them killing themselves every generation only to have a new fresh re-upload of the downloaded mind of Nimue under the new conditions.

Kind of went off a bit, but I still think its relevant.
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Re: Spoilers (I guess): Merlin and Nynian
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:37 pm

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wkernochan wrote:I guess this is the appropriate point to note that, strictly speaking, this is same-sex incest. However, that's a minor point. The real question is:

(wait for it)

What's the baby going to be?!!!


And why do you think Merlin can impregnate anyone?
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