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SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Bahzellstudent   » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:35 pm

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Having just read the latest Honorverse volume just a couple of weeks before (which I had been very disappointed with); I loved At the Sign of Triumph; thought the way that Clyntahn was dealt with at the end was very much in keeping with the series - not gloating over him; not 'blinding him with real science' - just letting him realise that all his works have come to naught.

So I am a big fan - yes, I am sure David could have shaved off a hundred pages or more, but I really got into the book very quickly and couldn't tear myself away
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by ksandgren   » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:43 pm

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Bahzellstudent wrote:Having just read the latest Honorverse volume just a couple of weeks before (which I had been very disappointed with); I loved At the Sign of Triumph; thought the way that Clyntahn was dealt with at the end was very much in keeping with the series - not gloating over him; not 'blinding him with real science' - just letting him realise that all his works have come to naught.

So I am a big fan - yes, I am sure David could have shaved off a hundred pages or more, but I really got into the book very quickly and couldn't tear myself away


+1 on this post. I was VERY disappointed in SOV, but this one kept my attention until I had read it all and it was immensely rewarding to me. I loved it. There may be things I would have done differently, but that was a great authors prerogative.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:26 pm

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Bahzellstudent wrote:Having just read the latest Honorverse volume just a couple of weeks before (which I had been very disappointed with); I loved At the Sign of Triumph; thought the way that Clyntahn was dealt with at the end was very much in keeping with the series - not gloating over him; not 'blinding him with real science' - just letting him realise that all his works have come to naught.

So I am a big fan - yes, I am sure David could have shaved off a hundred pages or more, but I really got into the book very quickly and couldn't tear myself away


+2 here. Just finished the Sign of Triumph 20 minutes ago and thoroughly enjoyed it :D
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by CRC   » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:08 pm

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Not really disappointed, just somewhat perturbed by the very rapid technology escalation between this book and HFQ - not to mention from AR.

Specifically I am referring to the sudden appearance of minesweepers, armored ocean going steam transports, steam powered landing craft, 12 inch shore based guns, observation balloons and Composition D filled shells in useful numbers.

Armageddon Reef was based on the year 890. ATST is based in the year 897. Notwithstanding Baron Green Valley's dissertation on the differences between Safehold and the US Civil War R&D, production, logistics and manufacturing, or Merlin's discussion of water wheel technology and its adaptability to steam power, the extremely fast technological escalation is just not that believable in a 7 year time span.

The items they are producing, now in mass, require precision machining and creating mass production precision machines take time to design, build, produce and deploy in significant numbers.

The only real disappointment has already been mentioned. Neither Merlin nor Nimue de-briefed Clyntahn. That is unforgiveable and a huge oversight. They apparently knew of the secret tunnels, but there may be more that Clyntahn's knows about the 1000 year visit, the room under the temple, even such mundane stuff as possible threats to Duchairn.

Those two items being said, I very much enjoyed the book. Am now re-reading it, and will probably read it several more times - especially with the new maps - so that I can savor those little tidbits I missed on prior reads.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:21 pm

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CRC wrote:
The only real disappointment has already been mentioned. Neither Merlin nor Nimue de-briefed Clyntahn. That is unforgiveable and a huge oversight. They apparently knew of the secret tunnels, but there may be more that Clyntahn's knows about the 1000 year visit, the room under the temple, even such mundane stuff as possible threats to Duchairn.


Again, how? How could they de-brief him? Before they break his faith - they would have nothing from him. After - they would have nothing again (assuming that he would ever bother to answer).

And if they tried to debrief him, it could actually pose a significant problem. Clyntahn may made up his mind - and, in his final word, denounce the Holy Writ. In details - precise details - and claiming that Seijins told him so.

Of course, majority would just consider him completely insane, but the minority would notice that such sudden changes in Clyntahn are particulary strange. And may actually start to think - why he said so?
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by CRC   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:00 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
CRC wrote:
The only real disappointment has already been mentioned. Neither Merlin nor Nimue de-briefed Clyntahn. That is unforgiveable and a huge oversight. They apparently knew of the secret tunnels, but there may be more that Clyntahn's knows about the 1000 year visit, the room under the temple, even such mundane stuff as possible threats to Duchairn.


Again, how? How could they de-brief him? Before they break his faith - they would have nothing from him. After - they would have nothing again (assuming that he would ever bother to answer).

And if they tried to debrief him, it could actually pose a significant problem. Clyntahn may made up his mind - and, in his final word, denounce the Holy Writ. In details - precise details - and claiming that Seijins told him so.

Of course, majority would just consider him completely insane, but the minority would notice that such sudden changes in Clyntahn are particulary strange. And may actually start to think - why he said so?


A dozen different alternatives come to mind. Using the verifier, showing him the message in the stone, having a conversation with him, psych warfare, letting him actually visit Narhman and OWL. Put a SNARC on him, which wasn't possible while he was in the Temple and let him converse with various people. Hell download his mind!

And let's not limit the de-brief to under the Temple stuff. He has rakuri everwhere. He knows where the safehouses are. He knows the contact protocols. He knows where he was headed to, with whom and to whom.

Keep in mind that intelligence gathering is 1/4 new information and 3/4 validating that information to connect the dots. Sometimes the most innocent of off hand comments or references can lead to a whole bunch of new information.

Other people have commented on the fact that he knew Shan Wei's voice. How? Where? When? No one in the inner circle has been into the bowels of the temple. Just a simply layout or map would be kinda nice.

I bet that every inmate at Nuremburg was completely debriefed before the trials. That's probably why paper clip was so successful.

And finally, remember the Phandys and Duchairn connection was never made by OWL, Merlin or Mahrman prior to Phandys showing up. This despite the fact that Duchairn and Phandys made numerous, long trips outside the temple that had to be covered by SNARCs. So SNARC intelligence is not omnipotent when dealing with very sneaky people. And Clyntahn was one of the most devious.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:09 pm

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CRC wrote:

A dozen different alternatives come to mind. Using the verifier, showing him the message in the stone, having a conversation with him, psych warfare, letting him actually visit Narhman and OWL. Put a SNARC on him, which wasn't possible while he was in the Temple and let him converse with various people. Hell download his mind!



Basically the only idea that doesn't start with "allowing Clyntahn into the Inner Circle" might be to copy Clyntahn personality and memories and trying to debrief the copy. All other ways aren't reliable. For example, verifier are useless if Clyntahn would be simply unable (in his broken state) to even understood questions. Letting him to visin Narhman and OWL would basically led Clyntahn to understood too much - which also isn't good, because he might understood that he have some value and refuse to answer until he would be granted some sort of safety.

Still think that the best method would be to copy Clyntahn personality and memory and work with virtual copy.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:14 pm

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CRC wrote:Other people have commented on the fact that he knew Shan Wei's voice. How? Where? When? No one in the inner circle has been into the bowels of the temple. Just a simply layout or map would be kinda nice.


Yes, but how could they knew what to ask? And again, in broken state Clyntahn is useless; he would hardly be able to even understood what they are asked. They would need to put him back in at least partially sane state - and then they would be forced to deal with sane Clyntahn.

Hm, one strategy migh work... Suggesting Clyntahn that Archangels betrayed him personally, and offering him the chance to take revenge on them by providing the information about the Temple. THIS may work - Clyntahn clearly would be glad to do anything to harm the Arcnahgels.

The danger, again, is that Clyntahn migh either decide that he could bargain about his data, or could try to reveal the truth to others. So, Merlin & Co would be forced to either kill him after debriefing, or guarantee him life.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Louis R   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:22 pm

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Except, of course, for the fact that Clyntahn didn't _know_ 90% of the information you want to get from him. Rayno didn't even tell him the names of the rakurai he interviewed, never mind operational details. So the best source of that info wasn't available for interrogation.

Since he didn't tell them that he recognised Langhorne's voice [and it was Langhorne's, not Shan Wei's], they wouldn't have known to ask the question 'How?' And prisoner interrogation is very dependent on knowing the questions to ask, unless the prisoner is fully cooperative. The most successful extractions of information from untortured prisoners of war in WWII happened when they talked among themselves about things that shouldn't have been discussed, and were caught on tape [well, wire, to be accurate] doing it. In the one case, apparently it never crossed their minds that those nice polite gentle [read: wimpy] Brits were bugging them ;)

There's also the possibility that the inner circle already knows enough, via Paityr and the inquisitors who were part of Helm Cleaver, to know that Clyntahn wouldn't have any particularly useful information on the guts of the Temple.

CRC wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
Again, how? How could they de-brief him? Before they break his faith - they would have nothing from him. After - they would have nothing again (assuming that he would ever bother to answer).

And if they tried to debrief him, it could actually pose a significant problem. Clyntahn may made up his mind - and, in his final word, denounce the Holy Writ. In details - precise details - and claiming that Seijins told him so.

Of course, majority would just consider him completely insane, but the minority would notice that such sudden changes in Clyntahn are particulary strange. And may actually start to think - why he said so?


A dozen different alternatives come to mind. Using the verifier, showing him the message in the stone, having a conversation with him, psych warfare, letting him actually visit Narhman and OWL. Put a SNARC on him, which wasn't possible while he was in the Temple and let him converse with various people. Hell download his mind!

And let's not limit the de-brief to under the Temple stuff. He has rakuri everwhere. He knows where the safehouses are. He knows the contact protocols. He knows where he was headed to, with whom and to whom.

Keep in mind that intelligence gathering is 1/4 new information and 3/4 validating that information to connect the dots. Sometimes the most innocent of off hand comments or references can lead to a whole bunch of new information.

Other people have commented on the fact that he knew Shan Wei's voice. How? Where? When? No one in the inner circle has been into the bowels of the temple. Just a simply layout or map would be kinda nice.

I bet that every inmate at Nuremburg was completely debriefed before the trials. That's probably why paper clip was so successful.

And finally, remember the Phandys and Duchairn connection was never made by OWL, Merlin or Mahrman prior to Phandys showing up. This despite the fact that Duchairn and Phandys made numerous, long trips outside the temple that had to be covered by SNARCs. So SNARC intelligence is not omnipotent when dealing with very sneaky people. And Clyntahn was one of the most devious.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Louis R   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:30 pm

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This, in essence, is exactly what happened, although he didn't say that the Seijins told him.

And I'm waiting with no patience to learn how Clyntahn's Last Words Before the Gallows are going to echo across Safehold. There have to be at least a few people who are wondering just what the heck he was talking about.

Dilandu wrote:
< snip >

And if they tried to debrief him, it could actually pose a significant problem. Clyntahn may made up his mind - and, in his final word, denounce the Holy Writ. In details - precise details - and claiming that Seijins told him so.

Of course, majority would just consider him completely insane, but the minority would notice that such sudden changes in Clyntahn are particulary strange. And may actually start to think - why he said so?
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