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SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?

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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:03 pm

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No Don, Charis had asserted the claim to accurately express God's will at the start of the jihad. What they gained during the war was general acceptance that their claim had merit.

That is not insignificant and worth the lives spent to gain that acceptance.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by cnrd22   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:53 pm

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PeterZ wrote:What they gained during the war was general acceptance that their claim had merit.

That is not insignificant and worth the lives spent to gain that acceptance.


I disagree a little here in the sense that the deaths during the war were not avoidable once Merlin's appearance and initial actions (and the existence of the St Zherneau secret known by the king and archbishop) led to the Jihad and the setup that didn't allow an early strike against Clyntahn which would have changed the complexion of the situation considerably - once the Circle is destroyed and the attack against Siddamark started even getting Clyntahn wouldn't have stopped the carnage anyway until the Church was defeated in the field.

Later when the CoGA is defeated in the field, yes a Clyntahn "fight till the end in the bunker" mentality would have allowed a total victory, but again, while that was considered by the Inner Circle (by denying Duchairn request), it wasn't acceptable for the majority there for very good reasons, so peace was inevitable - one may ask why the allies didn't ask for Duchairn and Magwair's heads too as the price for peace since after all they were part of the original 4 starting the war, but that would have been unwise again for good reasons

The problem with WW2 analogies is that CoGA is still regarded as legitimate once its corruption is dealt with, so yes the allies could have marched into Zion, but at what cost and unanticipated consequences?

This way, the main issue is deferred and there is a chance at the gradual progress Merlin would have preferred from the beginning - obviously it won't happen from the author's hints but again the Inner Circle doesn't know that now, though I suspect the regret of not marching into Zion in 898-899 will be manifested in the next arc...
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by n7axw   » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:39 pm

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cnrd22 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:What they gained during the war was general acceptance that their claim had merit.

That is not insignificant and worth the lives spent to gain that acceptance.


I disagree a little here in the sense that the deaths during the war were not avoidable once Merlin's appearance and initial actions (and the existence of the St Zherneau secret known by the king and archbishop) led to the Jihad and the setup that didn't allow an early strike against Clyntahn which would have changed the complexion of the situation considerably - once the Circle is destroyed and the attack against Siddamark started even getting Clyntahn wouldn't have stopped the carnage anyway until the Church was defeated in the field.

Later when the CoGA is defeated in the field, yes a Clyntahn "fight till the end in the bunker" mentality would have allowed a total victory, but again, while that was considered by the Inner Circle (by denying Duchairn request), it wasn't acceptable for the majority there for very good reasons, so peace was inevitable - one may ask why the allies didn't ask for Duchairn and Magwair's heads too as the price for peace since after all they were part of the original 4 starting the war, but that would have been unwise again for good reasons

The problem with WW2 analogies is that CoGA is still regarded as legitimate once its corruption is dealt with, so yes the allies could have marched into Zion, but at what cost and unanticipated consequences?

This way, the main issue is deferred and there is a chance at the gradual progress Merlin would have preferred from the beginning - obviously it won't happen from the author's hints but again the Inner Circle doesn't know that now, though I suspect the regret of not marching into Zion in 898-899 will be manifested in the next arc...


Yes, esp to last line here. They will regret it. I've already stated my viewpoint on the subject, but at the same time, we've got to admit that the future is dark to the participants in the story. They don't have authorial hints about a war 20 years down the pike. And quite frankly my previous post was mostly speculation. We don't know the details or the exact causes or for that matter who the antagonists will be either. All we can do is guess and wait for the next book.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by MrZero   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:59 am

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Even though the destruction of the Church is deferred, the bigger problem will be Who's Left? If there was to be a rebellion, then why did Weber have the Old Royals winnowed out? The only people left who might want to secede or revolt would be Zion, Dohlar, or Harchong. And all of them knew they were beat. Anyone with half a grain of sense would look at the events of the last 7 Safehold years and say "Even if I want to rebel, I can't win against Charis." Everyone doesn't have enough troops left, some of them don't have enough _population_ left. Now there may be ways to gather enough idiots to work a few pirate ships, but not enough to revolt against the Good Guy Empire who wants to lower taxes, brutalize people who want to kidnap you in the night, and rule you like Mr Rodgers. And even if they want to rebel, getting hired to a well-paying pro-Charis job from Merch (and her sword) would be enough to lose many a prospective troublemaker. What we have to put up with now is a long stretch of peace. Even though Weber is terrible at giving his large number of characters good ideas, I'm confident that he'll have the last members of a sci-fi empire stand guard in front of a door for three months and never even occur to them to create bulletproof vests or something before their next speaking role is to start complaining about all the dreadful casualties. But that's it, it's over. Merlin's won, he controls the world. The Church hasn't fallen, but they're willing to listen to Charis and tow the party line, so he controls _them_. So next book all he has left on his to-do is: what does he do with the Temple, spreading the Truth, and the Platform. Unless he suddenly manages to dig up some starships landed by the Alexandria team on the other planets (or moon. You know there's going to be something on the moon.)
It's over. The age of high-seas combat in the flint-lock and cannon era while one man tries to take over the world is over, and with it Safehold. Another _several_ reasons why the "Capture and whoops, it's three months later" is a really bad ending to Sign of Triumph. Dessert's been served, meal's over.
(Sorry if it sounds a little adversarial. I've been flipping through SH9, trying to find the enjoyable bits, and even with that the ending is refusing to sit well. As well as the mood inconsistencies between the early and later # books.)
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by thanatos   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:19 am

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I was not disappointed with the book overall. Charis' victory has been a near-inevitability since the end of LAMA, and this book delivered the inevitable conclusion. Several sub-plots were also tied up satisfactorily, particularly the brewing discontent of the nobility in Chisholm. After all, we are still dealing with a world that is still emerging from a middle-aged mentality. The sort of deep conspiracies we are used to seeing in Game of Thrones were the norm in such societies and Weber needed to address this. Moreover, the Good Guys couldn't have everything going for them at home.

But for those who feel that the end was rushed somehow, that the Zion Uprising (itself a realistic consequence of the Inquisition's behavior) somehow cheated us from the sort of total collapse we wanted to see, the final battle we expected, I would refer you to Weber's comments on the subject of Japan's surrender in WWII. I remember my father telling me what he was taught, that the military leadership had taken over Japan, that Hirohito was a prisoner in the palace, that he had to smuggle the recording of the surrender out of the palace and that his dialect was so strange that many of his subjects couldn't understand him. But we know today that he was involved up to his eyeballs in the decision making process that led to Japan's expansionism and the attack on Pearl Harbor. He and his family were let off the hook in the Tokyo Trials and was allowed to remain a figurehead ruler afterwards only because the US realized that executing or even imprisoning him would likely touch off riots, mass suicides and possibly guerrilla warfare when they were seeking an end to the war. The Charisians, their allies and even their enemies are just as war weary at this point as the US was then. This is why the Inner Circle decides in the end to support Rhobair's power grab, even though they are aware it will make Nimue's mission more difficult to complete.

As for the King Haarahld-class ships, while many here were disappointed that only one such ship was ready for the final battle in the end, that too is a realistic reflection of warfare and history. All too many grand projects, both in times of war or peace, end up being anticlimactic. The IAI Lavi and Edsel come to mind. But Weber addresses this in the passage where Nynian asks why they built them in the first place. Their purpose is not to win the war at sea for them, but to win the next war for political and religious dominance. These ships are intended to be several orders of magnitude above anything the Temple Loyalists are likely to have and their construction requires the adoption of nearly every new technology available at the moment. All the major powers that emerge from this war will have to build similar ships, either to compete with Charisian naval domination or simply to defend themselves against Charis in the future. To do that, they would need to embrace Charisian innovation. And given that Charis isn't willing suborn itself to any Grand Vicar's authority, that innovation isn't going to stop.

This means that come the next book, we are likely to begin 10-15 years into the future, after the Church has tried to win back the moral authority it lost and reestablish its legitimacy as the planetary government it was intended to be. It means that if the Temple Lands must become a separate secular power, its secular leaders will have to continue innovating to stay within shouting distance of Charis' manufacturing superiority. There is also likely to be a Harchongese Civil War in the interim period, with South Harchong establishing its independence and the North shattering under a peasant revolt. Or perhaps Rainbow Waters will march his army of serfs back and restore order and shatter the old order in the process.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by n7axw   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:08 pm

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thanatos wrote:I was not disappointed with the book overall. Charis' victory has been a near-inevitability since the end of LAMA, and this book delivered the inevitable conclusion. Several sub-plots were also tied up satisfactorily, particularly the brewing discontent of the nobility in Chisholm. After all, we are still dealing with a world that is still emerging from a middle-aged mentality. The sort of deep conspiracies we are used to seeing in Game of Thrones were the norm in such societies and Weber needed to address this. Moreover, the Good Guys couldn't have everything going for them at home.

But for those who feel that the end was rushed somehow, that the Zion Uprising (itself a realistic consequence of the Inquisition's behavior) somehow cheated us from the sort of total collapse we wanted to see, the final battle we expected, I would refer you to Weber's comments on the subject of Japan's surrender in WWII. I remember my father telling me what he was taught, that the military leadership had taken over Japan, that Hirohito was a prisoner in the palace, that he had to smuggle the recording of the surrender out of the palace and that his dialect was so strange that many of his subjects couldn't understand him. But we know today that he was involved up to his eyeballs in the decision making process that led to Japan's expansionism and the attack on Pearl Harbor. He and his family were let off the hook in the Tokyo Trials and was allowed to remain a figurehead ruler afterwards only because the US realized that executing or even imprisoning him would likely touch off riots, mass suicides and possibly guerrilla warfare when they were seeking an end to the war. The Charisians, their allies and even their enemies are just as war weary at this point as the US was then. This is why the Inner Circle decides in the end to support Rhobair's power grab, even though they are aware it will make Nimue's mission more difficult to complete.

As for the King Haarahld-class ships, while many here were disappointed that only one such ship was ready for the final battle in the end, that too is a realistic reflection of warfare and history. All too many grand projects, both in times of war or peace, end up being anticlimactic. The IAI Lavi and Edsel come to mind. But Weber addresses this in the passage where Nynian asks why they built them in the first place. Their purpose is not to win the war at sea for them, but to win the next war for political and religious dominance. These ships are intended to be several orders of magnitude above anything the Temple Loyalists are likely to have and their construction requires the adoption of nearly every new technology available at the moment. All the major powers that emerge from this war will have to build similar ships, either to compete with Charisian naval domination or simply to defend themselves against Charis in the future. To do that, they would need to embrace Charisian innovation. And given that Charis isn't willing suborn itself to any Grand Vicar's authority, that innovation isn't going to stop.

This means that come the next book, we are likely to begin 10-15 years into the future, after the Church has tried to win back the moral authority it lost and reestablish its legitimacy as the planetary government it was intended to be. It means that if the Temple Lands must become a separate secular power, its secular leaders will have to continue innovating to stay within shouting distance of Charis' manufacturing superiority. There is also likely to be a Harchongese Civil War in the interim period, with South Harchong establishing its independence and the North shattering under a peasant revolt. Or perhaps Rainbow Waters will march his army of serfs back and restore order and shatter the old order in the process.


Nice post. I was disappointed that the COGA and the inquisition were only curbed, not broken. But I also suspect that the ending is a literary device to launch the series into the second arc. It will be fascinating to see how that works out. Overall...a wonderful book.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by OJsDad   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:53 pm

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I cannot say that a lot of how the book ended was a surprise.  Not that it wasn't worth reading, just not a great surprise.  Having read all of Safehold books, and more of the Honor Harrington books, I wasn't blown away with some of the twists that he through in.  Not that I saw them coming, it's just that he has so many twists and surprises, that I tend to expect them.

As an example, were too many of us surprised that Phandys wasn't really working for the Inquisition. It's not that I knew it was coming, just not surprised it happened.

Weber's a good writer, but in this book, and some of his others, include Shadow of Victory, he gets too long winded.  Too many scenes that he goes into great detail for no real purpose.  Felt like I was rereading the same sections at times, just different names and places. How many times do have to be told that the balloons made all the difference for the artillery. Or that so and so knows what really happening because of the SNARCS, but cannot tell anyone how they know.

I think the only thing I can take away as a surprise is that neither Stohnar nor Thirsk were brought into the Inner Circle.

Was really glad that Magwair survived.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by wkernochan   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:59 pm

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I believe it was in this thread that someone complained that we don't know what happened to Rainbow Waters. While rereading I noted that on p. 1xx RW notes that he has already made arrangements for an engagement in South Harchong after the war ends. In other words, RW is probably no longer with the serf army but busy working in SH, probably on war-related technologies and strategies.

As long as I'm speculating, I had a wicked (?) thought. The one area that Peerless Author has said nothing about is the Kingdom of Sodar (Howard) -- I am guessing that's because it's relatively unpopulated and unimportant. Why not stick the serf army there? They'll be right next to SH and RW ...
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Bluestrike2   » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:04 pm

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The ending was bittersweet. It might not have been a cliffhanger or very adventurous in those last few pages, but it certainly seemed a more realistic conclusion to the first part of the series. In that sense, it’s a bit more satisfying precisely because so many loose threads remain untied.

From the Inner Circle’s perspective, it was only a partial victory. Charis won, but the Church survived because Charis had no option but to accept the negotiated settlement. They’re happy that the Jihad is over, and that their subjects are no longer dying in a fight that *never should have been theirs.* It was forced on them by the bastard lovechild of a handful of deluded megalomaniacs who sought to shackle the human race because they thought they knew better.

The Jihad was just another episode in a centuries-old tragedy. And that’s Safehold in a nutshell: there’s an incredible sense of unfairness to the entire tale, as people learn just what was stolen from them. They were denied millenia of true history, proper healthcare and expanded lifespans, technological progress and huge advances in quality of life, and so much more. Instead, they were imprisoned in a system inspired by some of the worst political systems and eras in human history. They even had outright slavery, implicitly justified by a divine “meh.”

The Inner Circle might feel a profound sense of relief now that the initial war is over, but that’s a far cry from the victory that they’re actually looking for. Anything other than a bittersweet ending, tainted by the knowledge that the truly hard part is yet to come, would have seemed forced.

On the flip side, now we get to wonder what sort of provisions they snuck into the negotiated settlement to help them with their work. Full access to the Temple and all Inquisition records would be a decent starting point. And we can speculate on what sort of subtle groundwork might be laid over the next twenty years.

Personally, I’d love to see the “discovery” of an original copy of the Writ from before the War of the Fallen, and possibly other scripture since we already know The Testimonies were heavily modified. Owl could easily fabricate an original, ‘divine’ version with advanced materials or even an ancient, weathered copy printed by purely local methods. Something like that would be a ground-shattering discovery, even if its historicity is disputed.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by evilauthor   » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:58 am

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I seriously doubt that a pre-WotF version of the Writ would be ground shattering to anyone but academics. After all, the modern version of the Writ couldn't logically exist prior to "Shan-Wei's rebellion".

But its discovery (or recreation) would be just a bit more chipping away at the religion's edifice as people compare versions and debate the changes made in the modern one.

And if Duchairne really did open up the Church's secret records, a pre-Fall Writ would likely be just one more exposed lie in entire mountain of similar lies that everyone had assumed was true.

Remember that there's already textev of the modern Church prior to the current war insisting that modern Church doctrine had ALWAYS been doctrine despite at least the upper ranks of the priesthood knowing otherwise. No doubt, legions of scholars are going to go through those secret histories just to figure out and explain to everyone how the Church could have become so corrupt as to place Clyntahn in charge.
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