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SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?

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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Louis R   » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:28 pm

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Hmmm...

Your Chinese restaurants must be awfully stingy. Two hours later, I'm usually groaning "why did i eat that last...???"

jtg452 wrote:
n7axw wrote:
Quite a few questions hanging, waiting to be addressed in the next story arc, I think.

Don

-


Yeah, I tried to take into consideration that some things would be left intentionally vague because they would be addressed with the follow up arc. I never expected everything tied up with a pretty bow. Those points he left untouched- like what's under the Temple- made sense to save for a later time. I know that this wasn't meant to be the end of the story, merely the end of the beginning.

To use a food analogy, it's just that there was plenty put out to eat yet I couldn't quite eat my fill. After a reread, I still find myself left wanting. I guess it's sort of like the difference between sitting down to a meal and getting up feeling full and sitting down to eat some Chinese takeout, cleaning your plate and getting up still feeling hungry.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by jtg452   » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:14 pm

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Louis R wrote:Hmmm...

Your Chinese restaurants must be awfully stingy. Two hours later, I'm usually groaning "why did i eat that last...???"




Nope, the portions are good, Chinese food just isn't as filling. Two hours later, I'm hungry again and it doesn't matter how much mei fun I eat.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by CRC   » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:55 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
CRC wrote:
Agreed on technological progress, but the expansion of production capacity to produce all of these things is my issue - not the technological progress itself. Yes, they are no-brainers when you have access to OWL's files, but that doesn't actually build the machinery that builds the bits and pieces.

Keep in mind we are going through the industrial revolution (say 1820)to pre-WWI capability - say late 1890's to early 1900's - in just 7 years.

Even today, if I want to order a lathe, a break and sheer or a mill that is not in stock, we are talking 30-90 day lead times - sometimes more. Not to mention if I need to order a couple hundred of them!

I would have preferred a conversation with Clyntahn prior to his "breaking" just to explore what he knew and then pursue it, but there was no indication of even that kind of evaluation. Now in all fairness, it could have happened, and the results, or non-results, revealed in the next book.


Your lathes are produced under peacetime conditions- not double-shift wartime production. The company that now has a thirty day lead time would expand geometrically as it trained new people to produce huge numbers of lathes - and get that lead time down. Because a lathe is a weapon of war, just as much as a gun - a 90 day lead time for the 'weapons' to build the weapons would be unacceptable.

Logistically, Charis also has access to much more industrial planning capacity than the church does, because OWL has access to the future equivalent of PRINCE type project planning. You can see the COGA struggling with developing production lines when they have no idea what they're working towards. Delthak's only problem is the same as yours - he doesn't have the tools to do a proper production line. Once Payter's inspiration gets him the tools, he's off.

Ditto for project planning, even though we don't really see that. Delthak has access to training on scheduling materials, labour, off site production most efficiently. The Church doesn't.


Ahh, that's what's been bothering me. Paityr's brainstorm using pneumatic "energy" distribution for production lines occurred in April 896 (Midst Toil...). ATSoT is in October of 897. Even Howsym mentioned at the time it would take several months to get something like that in place in a production line. That brings us to July-August 896.

The sheer volume of production just doesn't make sense. Even if OWL has access to planning software, you still have to have people inside the circle translate or transliterate that data to outside the circle personnel. And that takes trained project engineers, of which there are very few anywhere in this world - much less inside the circle.

You can compensate for that by sheer numbers of people swamping the inefficiencies - which is what COGA is doing - but COGA is concentrating on one model of rifle, for example, to the exclusion of others, while the ICN is transitioning through deploying 3 or 4 different rifle models and a pistol on the mainland in the same time frame - not to mention mortars, field kitchens, tents, uniforms, rations, kettles, shovels, skis, mess kits, ammo for all the above, artillery and balloons!

Even in Heirs of Empire Sean only used the Israel's manufacturing facilities to rifle the joharns, make a few other changes to items, but did not introduce anything as complex as a cartridge loading rifle or pistol. That process, as explained in the book, was much more believable - or as believable as a Sci-Fi book can be!

But as I said, its not really disappointment, just a little annoyance. RFC injects a lot of 'reality' into his books that allow for this type of analysis. Its actually fun to analyze something like this. Helps either dust off the old cobwebs or provide a bit of escape from the latest status report.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by fury161   » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:40 am

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I would like to say that I'm too am a little disappointed in the way ATSoT ended. I almost felt like it was rushed, like I have to clear up this thread over and this one over there. I wanted so much to be a part of the Zionists day when they took over the Temple that joy the Zionites were feeling when they rushing to their Good Shepard.

I also was very disappointed in the way that Clynthan was executed. I'm not saying he should have gone through the Punishment I just feel the punishment he did get was not enough.

I'm really hoping the next book will come out sooner, I'm getting old and the kidney's are failing, but I'll be damned if I die before this series is over. I've got them all on my iPod and sleep to them, I'm surprised I can't say them by heart.

For some reason these books are magic to me, they keep me going and I was to see how they end.

fury
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by mustangman   » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:20 pm

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My only disappointment I guess is that you can only fit so much into one book. My expectations were unfairly raised when I read reviews that promised an end to this arc of the story. in my personal opinion, the end of this arc really won't come about until the kinetic bombardment platforms are disabled. at that time technology can develop to its full potential. until they discover what is going to happen when the arc angels return and they are able to access the temple, and disable those platforms they are still limited to steam power. electricity will not be introduced. I did think the way the author had Clyntahn denounce the writ at the end was a very clever way of beginning the erosion of the writ's hold on the rest of safehold. even Stonahr was shocked. that story will be told across the world and people will wonder what it meant. I guess like I said my disappointment only comes from my expectation of what the end of this arc meant. the Jihad is over, but they haven't overcome the proscriptions yet. darn still have to sit in anticipation of the next book, I sure hope David doesn't decide now that the Jihad is over he can take a break from safehold and concentrate on other projects lol. I still love the series.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:51 pm

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mustangman wrote:My only disappointment I guess is that you can only fit so much into one book. My expectations were unfairly raised when I read reviews that promised an end to this arc of the story. in my personal opinion, the end of this arc really won't come about until the kinetic bombardment platforms are disabled. at that time technology can develop to its full potential. until they discover what is going to happen when the arc angels return and they are able to access the temple, and disable those platforms they are still limited to steam power. electricity will not be introduced. I did think the way the author had Clyntahn denounce the writ at the end was a very clever way of beginning the erosion of the writ's hold on the rest of safehold. even Stonahr was shocked. that story will be told across the world and people will wonder what it meant. I guess like I said my disappointment only comes from my expectation of what the end of this arc meant. the Jihad is over, but they haven't overcome the proscriptions yet. darn still have to sit in anticipation of the next book, I sure hope David doesn't decide now that the Jihad is over he can take a break from safehold and concentrate on other projects lol. I still love the series.


How the story arc concludes is a bit arbitrary, I suppose. For me the end of the story arc coming with the conclusion of the war and the death of Clyntahn seems natural enough. The story of how the OBS is dealt with and humans re-enter space does seem to me to properly belong to the next phase of the story.

I wonder... according to the timetable we have been given, the return of the archangels should have happened before the beginning of the next book. I wonder how that will be dealt with...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Silverwall   » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:47 pm

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CRC wrote:*snip*

Ahh, that's what's been bothering me. Paityr's brainstorm using pneumatic "energy" distribution for production lines occurred in April 896 (Midst Toil...). ATSoT is in October of 897. Even Howsym mentioned at the time it would take several months to get something like that in place in a production line. That brings us to July-August 896.

The sheer volume of production just doesn't make sense. Even if OWL has access to planning software, you still have to have people inside the circle translate or transliterate that data to outside the circle personnel. And that takes trained project engineers, of which there are very few anywhere in this world - much less inside the circle.

You can compensate for that by sheer numbers of people swamping the inefficiencies - which is what COGA is doing - but COGA is concentrating on one model of rifle, for example, to the exclusion of others, while the ICN is transitioning through deploying 3 or 4 different rifle models and a pistol on the mainland in the same time frame - not to mention mortars, field kitchens, tents, uniforms, rations, kettles, shovels, skis, mess kits, ammo for all the above, artillery and balloons!

Even in Heirs of Empire Sean only used the Israel's manufacturing facilities to rifle the joharns, make a few other changes to items, but did not introduce anything as complex as a cartridge loading rifle or pistol. That process, as explained in the book, was much more believable - or as believable as a Sci-Fi book can be!

But as I said, its not really disappointment, just a little annoyance. RFC injects a lot of 'reality' into his books that allow for this type of analysis. Its actually fun to analyze something like this. Helps either dust off the old cobwebs or provide a bit of escape from the latest status report.


The rate of improvement in manufacturing is one one my biggest gripes with this entire series (along with the insance speed of advance of both army and navy formations)

Think about it, at the height of thier prowess the royal navy dockyards were able to launch HMS Dreadnought in a year and a day by cutting corners and diverting components from other projects. Yet somehow with only a fraction of the workforce and much less experiance and availability of parts the Delthik yard nearly matches that to produce the King Harald.

Realistically they should be closer to the performance of French or Italian yards around 1900 where it takes them 5+ years to build a ship.

The other issue is how good the supposedly conservative CoG manufacturing is. To give an idea of the issues involved have a look at this fascinating video on chinese pistols from the 20's and if you understand guns you can see the issues people have copying a tool they don't fully understand and these issue would be worse for CoG artisans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Kufat   » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:31 pm

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Overall, I'm pretty happy with this installment.

I think everyone wanted to see Merlin and Cayleb sail one of the King Haarahlds directly up Clyntahn's...well, you get the idea. To see Owl take over the Temple's computers and switch the OBS off tidily. But...much as I wanted it, I didn't expect it.

My expectations were more along the lines of:
  • Duchairn tells Clyntahn that the church is broke
  • Clyntahn has him killed
  • Trynair and Magwair have a chat
  • The Temple Guard is grieved to discover Clyntahn's tragic and extremely accidental death from a case of "cut himself shaving while falling down the stairs"
  • Trynair negotiates peace with Cayleb
So, while the specifics surprised me (to the point where I half-expected to see Trynair alive due to some trickery or other) the general shape of things didn't. Things were moving too tidily; there had to be a spanner in the works somewhere, and I'm happy with the one that appeared.

That said, the lack of post-victory content was surprising and disappointing. RFC picked a heck of a time to catch a bad case of brevity! But I understand that the book was finished under a tight deadline. These things happen; nevertheless, I'd welcome the chance to buy a novella taking place between this book and the next part of the saga.

By the way, it seems like I'm not the only one who found a parallel to Saruman and Wormtongue in Rayno's death. Wonder if it was intentional...
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:27 am

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Silverwall wrote:
The other issue is how good the supposedly conservative CoG manufacturing is. To give an idea of the issues involved have a look at this fascinating video on chinese pistols from the 20's and if you understand guns you can see the issues people have copying a tool they don't fully understand and these issue would be worse for CoG artisans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HNaB7l2GQk


The Chinese comparison isn't really appropriate. The video you reference makes it clear that the bad pistols come out of a lot of different people in the countryside who are unfamiliar with weapons being required to make some by hand on their own. Some of the nonsense arises because they don't read European languages. The CoG weapons are made, initially by experienced gunmakers, under two different sets of supervision, firstly from the gunmaker's guild then from the Church both of which are using very smart and experienced people to decide what to do and can disseminate the information widely with authority to require that it be followed and at least some quality control checks on what is accepted out of manufacturing. The people at the top can explain to the artisans what each of the parts is for and they all share he same culture and language with the EoC so they can read and understand any markings on the weapons. Individual workshops are not being handed examples to copy without further input, as in the Chinese case, they are being handed plans and specifications derived by expert gunsmiths with maybe an example to reinforce these.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:01 am

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Kufat wrote:Overall, I'm pretty happy with this installment.

[*]The Temple Guard is grieved to discover Clyntahn's tragic and extremely accidental death from a case of "cut himself shaving while falling down the stairs"


So much more an amusing thought than his accidentally defenestrating himself. Thanks.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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