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SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by kaid   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:59 pm

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CRC wrote:Not really disappointed, just somewhat perturbed by the very rapid technology escalation between this book and HFQ - not to mention from AR.

Specifically I am referring to the sudden appearance of minesweepers, armored ocean going steam transports, steam powered landing craft, 12 inch shore based guns, observation balloons and Composition D filled shells in useful numbers.

Armageddon Reef was based on the year 890. ATST is based in the year 897. Notwithstanding Baron Green Valley's dissertation on the differences between Safehold and the US Civil War R&D, production, logistics and manufacturing, or Merlin's discussion of water wheel technology and its adaptability to steam power, the extremely fast technological escalation is just not that believable in a 7 year time span.

The items they are producing, now in mass, require precision machining and creating mass production precision machines take time to design, build, produce and deploy in significant numbers.

The only real disappointment has already been mentioned. Neither Merlin nor Nimue de-briefed Clyntahn. That is unforgiveable and a huge oversight. They apparently knew of the secret tunnels, but there may be more that Clyntahn's knows about the 1000 year visit, the room under the temple, even such mundane stuff as possible threats to Duchairn.

Those two items being said, I very much enjoyed the book. Am now re-reading it, and will probably read it several more times - especially with the new maps - so that I can savor those little tidbits I missed on prior reads.



If you are going to bother building the big naval ships then building a mine sweeper is sort of a no brainer. Pretty easy to do with something along the lines of the ironclads they already had because once land mines are seen as a thing it is a short hop for that to turn into a sea mine especially when facing opponents you can't face in fair combat they are going to look for every mean to neutralize them.

As for the victory ships again it is simply just applying what they had already been doing for a while in an obvious solution. They are a lot simpler to build than war ships and transports that can cross that distance needed to wage war in the back yard of the church rapidly to supply the army is almost more useful than the warships once the churches navies got knocked out.

Just look at pre world war one and post world war 1 during times of conflict progress can be extremely rapid especially when one side already has a lot of the info necessary for those advancements and their only sticking point is to try to make it look as naturally developed as possible.

Had charis been willing progress could have been even more advanced but they could not risk doing to much to fast.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:26 pm

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Louis R wrote:This, in essence, is exactly what happened, although he didn't say that the Seijins told him.

And I'm waiting with no patience to learn how Clyntahn's Last Words Before the Gallows are going to echo across Safehold. There have to be at least a few people who are wondering just what the heck he was talking about.


Essentially it isn't. Because by that moment Clyntahn was clearly unbalanced and simply could not say anything consistent.

Now imagine what if Clyntahn gave a sane and consistent speach, in which he described his previous experience with Arhangels data (even telling where to fing it in Temple) and later declaring - in details! - that Seijins showed him, that Archangels lied, and the Writ is a lie...

Some peoples would clearly start to suspect something - because such consistent story which actually gave Clyntahn nothing, would be pretty strange thing.
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by n7axw   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:22 pm

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Just a couple of things...

First, remember that the tech can be advanced at a vastly accelerated pace because the primary innovators are cheating by having access to Owl's files.

Secondly, Clyntahn did have access to the inquisitions most highly classified files. Debriefing him might have provided another perspective and additional insight on those years during the War of the Fallen. Over all, I would have preferred a facing death sort of conversion for Clyntahn before he faces the hangman's noose. But...I was happy with the basic no fuss, no muss approach to his execution.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:55 pm

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n7axw wrote:I wholeheartedly enjoyed the book. But I did find the explanation for the end of the war less than convincing. What it seemed to amount to was We are soooo tired of people dying that we're gonna let Duchairn try to straighten out the COGA and the inquisition. Besides, there is that thing under the Temple...

Probably this was a plot device to get us into the next story arc. But still, I did feel a bit let down by the way it turned out.

Don

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No. It's that they have no legitimate reason to refuse the peace as it gets everything they supposedly want.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:05 am

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Why would anyone expect a big battle to capture Clyntahn??

PICA vs human with black powder weapons isn't a battle at all.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by CRC   » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:55 am

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n7axw wrote:Just a couple of things...

First, remember that the tech can be advanced at a vastly accelerated pace because the primary innovators are cheating by having access to Owl's files.

Secondly, Clyntahn did have access to the inquisitions most highly classified files. Debriefing him might have provided another perspective and additional insight on those years during the War of the Fallen. Over all, I would have preferred a facing death sort of conversion for Clyntahn before he faces the hangman's noose. But...I was happy with the basic no fuss, no muss approach to his execution.

Don

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Agreed on technological progress, but the expansion of production capacity to produce all of these things is my issue - not the technological progress itself. Yes, they are no-brainers when you have access to OWL's files, but that doesn't actually build the machinery that builds the bits and pieces.

Keep in mind we are going through the industrial revolution (say 1820)to pre-WWI capability - say late 1890's to early 1900's - in just 7 years.

Even today, if I want to order a lathe, a break and sheer or a mill that is not in stock, we are talking 30-90 day lead times - sometimes more. Not to mention if I need to order a couple hundred of them!

I would have preferred a conversation with Clyntahn prior to his "breaking" just to explore what he knew and then pursue it, but there was no indication of even that kind of evaluation. Now in all fairness, it could have happened, and the results, or non-results, revealed in the next book.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:17 am

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CRC wrote:
Agreed on technological progress, but the expansion of production capacity to produce all of these things is my issue - not the technological progress itself. Yes, they are no-brainers when you have access to OWL's files, but that doesn't actually build the machinery that builds the bits and pieces.

Keep in mind we are going through the industrial revolution (say 1820)to pre-WWI capability - say late 1890's to early 1900's - in just 7 years.

Even today, if I want to order a lathe, a break and sheer or a mill that is not in stock, we are talking 30-90 day lead times - sometimes more. Not to mention if I need to order a couple hundred of them!

I would have preferred a conversation with Clyntahn prior to his "breaking" just to explore what he knew and then pursue it, but there was no indication of even that kind of evaluation. Now in all fairness, it could have happened, and the results, or non-results, revealed in the next book.


Your lathes are produced under peacetime conditions- not double-shift wartime production. The company that now has a thirty day lead time would expand geometrically as it trained new people to produce huge numbers of lathes - and get that lead time down. Because a lathe is a weapon of war, just as much as a gun - a 90 day lead time for the 'weapons' to build the weapons would be unacceptable.

Logistically, Charis also has access to much more industrial planning capacity than the church does, because OWL has access to the future equivalent of PRINCE type project planning. You can see the COGA struggling with developing production lines when they have no idea what they're working towards. Delthak's only problem is the same as yours - he doesn't have the tools to do a proper production line. Once Payter's inspiration gets him the tools, he's off.

Ditto for project planning, even though we don't really see that. Delthak has access to training on scheduling materials, labour, off site production most efficiently. The Church doesn't.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by jtg452   » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:19 pm

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I waited to reply to this one until I had a chance to do a reread, too. You all know how Weber's books are, you always miss something the first time through.

I'm not disappointed (I saved that for the latest Honorverse book). Left unsatisfied, yeah, but not really disappointed.

This book hits all the key points that needed to be touched but it just felt a little forced and sort of incomplete in a way that I can't put my finger on.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:39 pm

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jtg452 wrote:I waited to reply to this one until I had a chance to do a reread, too. You all know how Weber's books are, you always miss something the first time through.

I'm not disappointed (I saved that for the latest Honorverse book). Left unsatisfied, yeah, but not really disappointed.

This book hits all the key points that needed to be touched but it just felt a little forced and sort of incomplete in a way that I can't put my finger on.


Quite a few questions hanging, waiting to be addressed in the next story arc, I think.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILERS: Anyone else... disappointed?
Post by jtg452   » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:26 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Quite a few questions hanging, waiting to be addressed in the next story arc, I think.

Don

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Yeah, I tried to take into consideration that some things would be left intentionally vague because they would be addressed with the follow up arc. I never expected everything tied up with a pretty bow. Those points he left untouched- like what's under the Temple- made sense to save for a later time. I know that this wasn't meant to be the end of the story, merely the end of the beginning.

To use a food analogy, it's just that there was plenty put out to eat yet I couldn't quite eat my fill. After a reread, I still find myself left wanting. I guess it's sort of like the difference between sitting down to a meal and getting up feeling full and sitting down to eat some Chinese takeout, cleaning your plate and getting up still feeling hungry.
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