SPOILER- Thank you so very much RFC for AtSoT!-SPOILER

dobriennm wrote:
Perhaps they should have tried to break him sooner and get more information out of him rather than simply having their revenge on him. Though I understand them not wanting to have him babbling to everyone about the demons showing him visions.

Any counterarguments?

First of all, what arguments - outside the physical torture (and even this might not work) they could use to make him talk? Clyntahn was broken. His entire life was devoted to lie. He was probably totally unable to think at this time, much less to answer the questions. What could they do to make him talk - and moreover, how could they be sure that he told them the truth, not just the mad babbling?

Secondly - this might took time. And this time might be enough for Clyntahn to actually comprehend the truth and do something unpredictable. Like, to use his last word to claim "The holy writ is a lie! Seijins revealed this to me!" and describe his experience exactly. And this would... this could bring unforceen consequences. Quite a lot of peoples would be puzzled: why the Grand Inquisitor, having nothing to lose, may start to denounce Holy Writ and saying that Seijins told him so? And some may start to doubt: what actually Seijins told Clyntahn that could change him so much?

P.S. But what they MIGHT do, is copy the Clyntahn personality. So they may use his memory as reference base. After all, if they managed to make Narhmann work despite his personality was only partially complete, they probably could crack the Clyntahn code and extract his memories?

evilauthor wrote:
Minor thing: Balloons. BAD RFC! Hot Air Balloons were apparently a known thing long before the current conflict ever erupted. But this information isn't given to the reader until the Temple/Harchong armies are already reacting to the Charisian deployment of observation ballooons.

Well, the baloons are clear example of the piano in the bushes) We SUDDENLY learn that they actually existed long before the war and there were even considerations about using them in military)

"- Here, in the bushes, by chance, stand a piano. I'll play you the Oginski Polonaise on it (Sounds "Polonaise" Oginski played by a symphony orchestra)" (c)

Dilandu wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
Minor thing: Balloons. BAD RFC! Hot Air Balloons were apparently a known thing long before the current conflict ever erupted. But this information isn't given to the reader until the Temple/Harchong armies are already reacting to the Charisian deployment of observation ballooons.

Well, the baloons are clear example of the piano in the bushes) We SUDDENLY learn that they actually existed long before the war and there were even considerations about using them in military)

"- Here, in the bushes, by chance, stand a piano. I'll play you the Oginski Polonaise on it (Sounds "Polonaise" Oginski played by a symphony orchestra)" (c)

I don't think it's a true example of the piano in the bushes - balloons date back to the third century, so well within 'allowable' pre-industrial technology.

Furthermore, we know that flight wasn't 'Angels only', since seijins were allowed the use of aircars and nobody in, say, the Fist of Kai Yung ever goes 'OMG! Me, fly! How can you be a real seijin if you make me do something so impious!'

So the hint that Safeholdians are always delighted by a trip in Merlin's aircar (rather than scared or horrified) is a hint that they know that it's possible to fly. The explanation turns out to be that hot air balloons are a popular fairground attraction.

If there's a piano in the bushes, it's after a number of 'Merlin glanced towards the bushes with a puzzled look' equivalents.

Bluesqueak wrote:
I don't think it's a true example of the piano in the bushes - balloons date back to the third century, so well within 'allowable' pre-industrial technology.

They wouldn't be - if they were actually mentioned before they actually appeared and the situation wasn't like "oh, you know, there were baloons on Safehold already. What? What do you mean - "never mentioned in any previous books"?" Currently, they are classical example)

Dilandu wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:
I don't think it's a true example of the piano in the bushes - balloons date back to the third century, so well within 'allowable' pre-industrial technology.

They wouldn't be - if they were actually mentioned before they actually appeared and the situation wasn't like "oh, you know, there were baloons on Safehold already. What? What do you mean - "never mentioned in any previous books"?" Currently, they are classical example)

If they are mentioned before they appear, every military orientated reader is going to think 'artillery spotting', 'signalling', possibly 'bombing'. How long did it take before this forum was discussing all of the above once the snippet appeared?

Unmanned balloons were used for signalling in the 3rd Century. Passenger balloons were used for military observation within eleven years of their invention. If you want their military use to be a surprise for the reader - you can't mention balloons in advance. All you can do is have the Safeholdian characters all react to flying as if it's something wonderful, but entirely understandable.

Merlin, btw, wouldn't realise that their reaction to flying is out of kilter for a pre-tech society, because Nimue came from a high tech society where flying was an everyday experience. Same with readers: flying is so normal to us, we accept that the characters all love it. But if you think about it, at least some of them should be terrified by simply being in mid-air in some mysterious magical chariot... unless they know this is simply some kind of mystic balloon.

With all respect, but it's still piano in the bushes by definition. Not very big, I freely admit. But still piano in the bushes.

By definition, piano in the bushes is "something, that very conveniently appeared in the story just when it needed, without any hints of its previous existence or logical reasons to suspect such thing".

So, while hot air baloons on Safehold are pretty possible and logical, their "sudden" appearance as already-established fact are clearly the example of piano in the bushes)

Some problems, that worried me:

1) I'm very suspicious of "armor-piercing" anti-ironclad rockets of Dohlar. Unless Charisians screwed really badly with their armored decks, I really doubt that rocket with warhead heavy enough to damage the ironclad could be created on the early-XIX-century tech level. Such large rocket engines appeared only in mid-XX century, and accuracy and angle of hit would make this weapon... more than absolutely useless. They are more dangerous for their users, than to enemy.

2) Charisian naval tactics suddenly became full of mad rushes against coastal defenses with ironclads in gunboat role. This add a lot of drama, I agree, but also make the impression of their declining competence. Real ironclads vs coasts operations - like Alexandria bombardment - were quite different.

3) The AOG & Charisian rockets are far too reliable for the avaliable tech level, I think. On the scale that they were used (especially in salvo firing) there were far too few accidental detonations.

ecortez wrote:But how would someone without a scientific theory of chemistry know what hydrogen was, or how to generate it, or have any reason to fill up a balloon with it? You might've been able to build a crude radio transceiver in ancient Greece. The metalworking and glassblowing trades were sophisticated enough to produce what you needed, if you gave them precise instructions and said yes, I know you don't understand what this stuff is for, just take my gold and follow my directions! The Maxwell equations that describe electromagnetic waves and provide the theoretical background to build such devices didn't exist until the 19th century. Without that, no one would ever have thought to put the right materials together in exactly the right way. Even though they could have.

Real reason: The Inner Circle passed the knowledge to the College who then passed it on to the public.

Public Reason: The discovery of hydrogen is the result of investigating the nature of air and the various gasses produced by industrial processes. One of those discoveries is that different types of "air" have different weights by volume and pressure. From there, it's a short hop and skip to using the LIGHTEST known type of "air" for balloon filler. That hydrogen is relatively easy to get (compared to helium anyway) is just a bonus.

You have to remember that the College is making all kinds of "discoveries" that the story isn't telling us about until they become relevant to the story.

Also, both Delthak and Tellesberg have converted to using natural gas lighting, establishing the precedent that Charis can already filter and separate out different types of gasses for different purposes. From there, "discovering" hydrogen isn't a huge leap.

And the book itself mentions that the innovation bug is spreading, with people making discoveries and new inventions completely independent of the Inner Circle.

Dilandu wrote:With all respect, but it's still piano in the bushes by definition. Not very big, I freely admit. But still piano in the bushes.

By definition, piano in the bushes is "something, that very conveniently appeared in the story just when it needed, without any hints of its previous existence or logical reasons to suspect such thing".

So, while hot air baloons on Safehold are pretty possible and logical, their "sudden" appearance as already-established fact are clearly the example of piano in the bushes)

Well, with equal respect, your definition of piano in the bushes means that not only isRFC inever allowed to spring a surprise, but he's not allowed to come up with a cool idea for Book 9 unless he's both planned it and set it up in Books 1-8.

Now me, I'd say that RFC is allowed to do both. If he wants to keep observation balloons as the tactical edge for Book 9, fine. If he wants to hide the point that Duchairn knows exactly how to fake financial records, fine. Equally, if he only came up with balloons when he was writing Book 8, then realised that Safeholdians would have to know about balloons if they weren't to be seen as encroaching on the perogatives of the Archangels ... also fine. He's the author.

My guess is that he wanted to save it for Book 9 but realised too many readers would see the obvious military uses of balloons if they were mentioned in earlier books. But I'm really not bothered if it wasn't introduced in earlier books because he hadn't thought it up when he wrote them.

Bluesqueak wrote:

Dilandu wrote:With all respect, but it's still piano in the bushes by definition. Not very big, I freely admit. But still piano in the bushes.

By definition, piano in the bushes is "something, that very conveniently appeared in the story just when it needed, without any hints of its previous existence or logical reasons to suspect such thing".

So, while hot air baloons on Safehold are pretty possible and logical, their "sudden" appearance as already-established fact are clearly the example of piano in the bushes)

Well, with equal respect, your definition of piano in the bushes means that not only isRFC inever allowed to spring a surprise, but he's not allowed to come up with a cool idea for Book 9 unless he's both planned it and set it up in Books 1-8.

Now me, I'd say that RFC is allowed to do both. If he wants to keep observation balloons as the tactical edge for Book 9, fine. If he wants to hide the point that Duchairn knows exactly how to fake financial records, fine. Equally, if he only came up with balloons when he was writing Book 8, then realised that Safeholdians would have to know about balloons if they weren't to be seen as encroaching on the perogatives of the Archangels ... also fine. He's the author.

My guess is that he wanted to save it for Book 9 but realised too many readers would see the obvious military uses of balloons if they were mentioned in earlier books. But I'm really not bothered if it wasn't introduced in earlier books because he hadn't thought it up when he wrote them.

You missed my point. The CHARISIAN baloons aren't piano in the bushes.

The piano is the sudden revelation that baloons actually were pretty well known on Safehold even before war. Because:

- This was never stated before
- There were no logical reasons to consider this "assumed for sure"
- This "revelation" suddenly appeared exactly when it was needed.

Simply speaking: there is nothing wrong with Charisian baloons, but the fact that baloons were known on Safehold before - is a piano in the bushes, because this fact was never mentioned before and dragged to our attention only exactly when it was needed to avoid accusation of "demonic powers".

If, for example, someone from first chapters of the book (Duchrain, for example) recalled the existence of baloons - maybe just as memory, or side thought like "looking into window he recalled the day when he saw the large, hot-air baloon floating in air above..." this would defuse the bushes) Because in such case the knowlege about the existence baloons on Safehold would looks fitted in the text - not hammered suddenly into reader when he didn't expected it.