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Nanites

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Nanites
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:50 am

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I am sure this has been asked before but do the nanites that Merlin injected into his friends self replicate or do they have to be renewed from time to time?

While on the subject, why don't they, as sometimes happens naturally, reject a pregnancy as a foreign body, and if they recognize the fetus as part of the body, why don't they embed themselves in it thus providing cost free protection from illness?
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Re: Nanites
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:28 am

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Interesting questions, I'm not sure we have answers as medical nanites are only talked about on an 'As necessary for the plot' basis.

We have never seen anyone having their nanites renewed or talking about it, so that's probably a 'No'

Because they are well programmed!? Maybe they recognise and won't transit a placenta? The fetus isn't part of the body, in the sense that it has a different DNA code and so can't be 'part of the body'. You should excuse the language, it is a bit like a parasite; in extremely close connection with the woman's body and dependent on it, but not strictly part of it. AFAIR the nanites have to be specifically tailored to the individual's DNA, so can't just adopt the fetus as well as the pregnant woman.
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Re: Nanites
Post by ti3x   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:37 am

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Randomiser wrote:Interesting questions, I'm not sure we have answers as medical nanites are only talked about on an 'As necessary for the plot' basis.

We have never seen anyone having their nanites renewed or talking about it, so that's probably a 'No'

Because they are well programmed!? Maybe they recognise and won't transit a placenta? The fetus isn't part of the body, in the sense that it has a different DNA code and so can't be 'part of the body'. You should excuse the language, it is a bit like a parasite; in extremely close connection with the woman's body and dependent on it, but not strictly part of it. AFAIR the nanites have to be specifically tailored to the individual's DNA, so can't just adopt the fetus as well as the pregnant woman.


Like a lot of sci-fi tech, medical nanites here are magic with a technical explanation (magical systems with concrete reasons are sci-fi -- fantasy is what happens when you make it up as you go along). I expect there to be rules, I just don't expect them to deviate from whatever the plot requires.
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Re: Nanites
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:02 pm

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Keith_w wrote:I am sure this has been asked before but do the nanites that Merlin injected into his friends self replicate or do they have to be renewed from time to time?

While on the subject, why don't they, as sometimes happens naturally, reject a pregnancy as a foreign body, and if they recognize the fetus as part of the body, why don't they embed themselves in it thus providing cost free protection from illness?


Keith,

As to the second question, I have two points... first IT'S FICTION ;) second, it's 363 years in the future when Captain Fofao is called to the bridge of TFNS Swiftsure and 405 years in our future when we meet Nimue on the bridge of Gulliver and, as destructive as war is, it also is an incubator for innovation in technology and medical procedures.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Nanites
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:22 am

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One question about nannites that is never answered in fiction is really simple!

1) where do they get thier power from?

They are far too small for mechanical power methods such as electric motors or piston engines. This leaves various chemical sources and materials that expand/contract under the presence of an electrical charge. This leads us naturally to question 2.

2) how do you refuel them? In the examples here the obvious source are the fats and carbohydrates in the bloodstream of those using them.

this leads us to a tentitive conclusion:

"Nannites" in this sense are closer to cells than the micro machines that power something like Seven of Nine and the borg.

In fiction they are always presented as mechanical devices but in reality I believe they would effectivly be artificial cells using similar chemical processes to power them. The interesting corollory of this is that they would almost certainly be susceptible to the sort of data degridation and malfunctions we see in DNA. The idea of "Nannite leukemia" could actually be a fascinating concept.

Finally I suspect they need to be customised to individuals so the immune system doesn't encyst them in the way it would currently encyst a non biological item that somehow got into the blood stream.

This is confirmed by the way we are approaching such things now focussing on vecors such as virusus, RNA and prion style approaches. Also note that none of these are machines but rather fucntion like enzymes.

I do not believe that we will ever see classic machine style nannites in common use as physics works completely differently at that scale and processes we understand such as rotation and the like are edging into the blur of quantum mechanics and prabablistic effects.
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Re: Nanites
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:35 am

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Silverwall wrote:One question about nannites that is never answered in fiction is really simple!

1) where do they get thier power from?

They are far too small for mechanical power methods such as electric motors or piston engines. This leaves various chemical sources and materials that expand/contract under the presence of an electrical charge. This leads us naturally to question 2.

2) how do you refuel them? In the examples here the obvious source are the fats and carbohydrates in the bloodstream of those using them.

this leads us to a tentitive conclusion:

"Nannites" in this sense are closer to cells than the micro machines that power something like Seven of Nine and the borg.

In fiction they are always presented as mechanical devices but in reality I believe they would effectivly be artificial cells using similar chemical processes to power them. The interesting corollory of this is that they would almost certainly be susceptible to the sort of data degridation and malfunctions we see in DNA. The idea of "Nannite leukemia" could actually be a fascinating concept.

Finally I suspect they need to be customised to individuals so the immune system doesn't encyst them in the way it would currently encyst a non biological item that somehow got into the blood stream.

This is confirmed by the way we are approaching such things now focussing on vecors such as virusus, RNA and prion style approaches. Also note that none of these are machines but rather fucntion like enzymes.

I do not believe that we will ever see classic machine style nannites in common use as physics works completely differently at that scale and processes we understand such as rotation and the like are edging into the blur of quantum mechanics and prabablistic effects.


Good points but I have a problem with all inclusive "never and always" positions... If we can think of it, and state the problem in logical terms, we will likely achieve it (in time). We do need to support the R&D and that may require that acceptable thinking gets past "if it is not in my holy book then we don't need it" kind of road block or the redirection of funds from other tech which might see nano as the competition. For example, if nano could cure disease would the pharma lobby fight it.?.. If it could give us free heat, wold oil lobby fight the funding requests?
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Nanites
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:11 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
Silverwall wrote:One question about nannites that is never answered in fiction is really simple!

1) where do they get thier power from?

They are far too small for mechanical power methods such as electric motors or piston engines. This leaves various chemical sources and materials that expand/contract under the presence of an electrical charge. This leads us naturally to question 2.

2) how do you refuel them? In the examples here the obvious source are the fats and carbohydrates in the bloodstream of those using them.

this leads us to a tentitive conclusion:

"Nannites" in this sense are closer to cells than the micro machines that power something like Seven of Nine and the borg.

In fiction they are always presented as mechanical devices but in reality I believe they would effectivly be artificial cells using similar chemical processes to power them. The interesting corollory of this is that they would almost certainly be susceptible to the sort of data degridation and malfunctions we see in DNA. The idea of "Nannite leukemia" could actually be a fascinating concept.

Finally I suspect they need to be customised to individuals so the immune system doesn't encyst them in the way it would currently encyst a non biological item that somehow got into the blood stream.

This is confirmed by the way we are approaching such things now focussing on vecors such as virusus, RNA and prion style approaches. Also note that none of these are machines but rather fucntion like enzymes.

I do not believe that we will ever see classic machine style nannites in common use as physics works completely differently at that scale and processes we understand such as rotation and the like are edging into the blur of quantum mechanics and prabablistic effects.


Good points but I have a problem with all inclusive "never and always" positions... If we can think of it, and state the problem in logical terms, we will likely achieve it (in time). We do need to support the R&D and that may require that acceptable thinking gets past "if it is not in my holy book then we don't need it" kind of road block or the redirection of funds from other tech which might see nano as the competition. For example, if nano could cure disease would the pharma lobby fight it.?.. If it could give us free heat, wold oil lobby fight the funding requests?


Big pharma would love nannites, whoever gets them makes bank curing cancer and genetic diseases.

I am not worried about them creating free or nearly free energy as this would be a violation of the first law of thermodynamics and ties into question 1 above. For a machine to produce energy it must be doing work which means it must be fueled and this effectivly requires burning somthing.

This is where all the classic "Grey goo" terror stories break down. Converting most common materials such as rocks and metals into more nannites is a very energy intensive process so where is the fuel comming from? It can't come from nuclear processes as there is a massive energy barrier to changing these materials at a nuclear level and it costs more energy than you get out. (Basically you need a supernova to fuel these processes) so that leave more conentional chemical processes which we understand very well right now.

please note that none of this invalidates the use of nano consturction techniques to create interesting products just that you will inevitibly put more raw energy in than you get out.
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Re: Nanites
Post by Joat42   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:36 pm

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Powering nanites can be done in a couple of different ways

1. Mimic organic cells and use chemical reactions to harvest energy.
2. Fuel-cell type of power, for fuel use the alcohol the body produces naturally (~0.2 mg per 100 ml blood).
3. Use ambient RF for power.
4. Sci-fi, future tech allows the nanites to be powered by cosmic rays
5. Sci-fi, future tech has extremely small capacitors which has extreme energy density.
6. Sci-fi?, powered by body-heat - ie. energy is harvested from molecular vibrations.

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Re: Nanites
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:47 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Powering nanites can be done in a couple of different ways

1. Mimic organic cells and use chemical reactions to harvest energy.
2. Fuel-cell type of power, for fuel use the alcohol the body produces naturally (~0.2 mg per 100 ml blood).
3. Use ambient RF for power.
4. Sci-fi, future tech allows the nanites to be powered by cosmic rays
5. Sci-fi, future tech has extremely small capacitors which has extreme energy density.
6. Sci-fi?, powered by body-heat - ie. energy is harvested from molecular vibrations.


1 and 2 are both very logical

3 might possibly be doable but the big problem is wavelength, most RF frequency radiation is too large an amplitude to interact effectively with such small recievers/antennas

4 cosmic rays are potentially plausible but are generally to high energy to interact with such small objects without destroying them

5 requires a change in our understanding of physics. The main problem is to do with the fact that classical capacitors work on a square power law and insulating between two electrical charges inside the capacitor and the need for electronic insulation between the positive and negative charges. This creates an unavoidable minimum separation to avoid charge transfer between the two charges. Techniques used in current day capacitors such as paper separator plates are way to large to be used at the nano level.

Also capacitor power is proportional to the area of the plate surfaces which is a square power increase with linear dimensions so such a small capacitor would have much smaller capacity than expected. So halving the x and y dimensions of the plates results in 1/4 of the power being stored.

Such a tiny system would be indistinguishable from the existing cellular ion pump system that can set up capacitance across cell membranes which nature has not been able to exploit to generate work. Also such a system would as I mentioned before be more like an artificial cell rather than a machine as we currently understand the term machine.

Sadly 6 probably runs into those pesky laws of thermodynamics again as we currently understand them. basically you would be attempting to harvest Brownian motion to do useful work which is a violation of the current conservation of energy principle and complicated by the random vectors of such vibration.

I am not saying these are absolutely impossible problems but rather that it requires fundamental changes to the laws of physics as we currently understand them. Basically things work differently at this scale than they do in the world we are familiar with. There are various thought experiments proposed along these lines but most have obvious problems with random effects and conservation of energy. E.g. Richard Feynman's Brownian ratchet concept.
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Re: Nanites
Post by Joat42   » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:25 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Powering nanites can be done in a couple of different ways

1. Mimic organic cells and use chemical reactions to harvest energy.
2. Fuel-cell type of power, for fuel use the alcohol the body produces naturally (~0.2 mg per 100 ml blood).
3. Use ambient RF for power.
4. Sci-fi, future tech allows the nanites to be powered by cosmic rays
5. Sci-fi, future tech has extremely small capacitors which has extreme energy density.
6. Sci-fi?, powered by body-heat - ie. energy is harvested from molecular vibrations.
Silverwall wrote:..snip..
Sadly 6 probably runs into those pesky laws of thermodynamics again as we currently understand them. basically you would be attempting to harvest Brownian motion to do useful work which is a violation of the current conservation of energy principle and complicated by the random vectors of such vibration.

I am not saying these are absolutely impossible problems but rather that it requires fundamental changes to the laws of physics as we currently understand them. Basically things work differently at this scale than they do in the world we are familiar with. There are various thought experiments proposed along these lines but most have obvious problems with random effects and conservation of energy. E.g. Richard Feynman's Brownian ratchet concept.

Actually, #6 isn't that far fetched (albeit not exactly in the fashion I proposed it):
Quantum Dots Could Harvest Waste Energy From Nanoscale Electronics

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