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A waaaaay out of order snippet

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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:47 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Duckk wrote:The two Sisters who are the highest valued prisoners the Inquisition has, and they just happen to die despite being in perfect health and surrounded by guards? Clearly a sign of demonic intervention. And even if they could somehow pull it off, what then? They still have to get the body out of Zion (or even worse, the Temple), and you can be sure that the bodies will be very closely watched as they try to figure out what happened.


Demonic intervention or a means of suicide that they missed?

I do agree that getting the bodies out of Zion would be impossible. What if they have nannites with the stasis drug and it's triggered before they're taken to Zion, though?



If it's Mistress Marzho, or any of her people, then they are already in Zion, which is a pretty big place

Mind you if they are in Zion it makes it really difficult for the Inquisition to cry, 'demonic intervention'. In HFQ when Rayno explains to Clyntahn why he now thinks demonic intervention really is involved in the Broadsheets that keep appearing, he reassures the shocked Grand Inquisitor by asserting that everyone agrees that demons can't possibly operate in Zion, 'the holiest ground in the world'. Claiming demonic intervention in an Inquisition prison within Zion directly contradicts the assumption of God's protection, and no-one is going to sleep at night. :twisted:
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by Bluestrike2   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:25 pm

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Kakai wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Hello - long time lurker here, posting to make a possibly stupid suggestion.

Somebody from the Sisterhood has been captured, and she has a poison locket.

Ninian herself (known to have such a locket) did say that she might need to make a quick trip to Zion, back in LAMA. And Ninian is someone who the Inner Circle could not allow to be interrogated.

(snip)


Hi, Bluesqueak, and welcome to the forum! Feel free to help yourself with a virtual drink at the virtual bar.

Regarding your suggestion, this is a distinct possibility, especially in the light of what you've just noted. The possible "good" - well, relatively good compared to other member of Saint Kody's being captured - thing about this turn of events is that as a member of the Inner Circle, Nynian likely has nanites in her bloodstream, which means that if push comes to shove, killing her would be as easy as sending a kill-signal to the nanites.

A bad thing about this turn of events would be that nanites' presence in her body could alert whatever monitoring system the Temple has, which could... considerably hasten the timeline of events, to say the least.

I didn't think about the connection between this and the cover art, but that would be way cool (and it would mark the important moment of the first time a Safehold cover matches the events in the book). The downside, however, would be that you'd have to explain to the volunteers why the seijins cannot enter the Temple with them. Surely an agent of God could safely walk into the world's most holy place, right?

But if such a raid would happen, seeing this from "native" perspective would be an absolutely fascinating read.


Having given it a lot of thought in the past, I can't see how someone's internal nanites could be detected externally unless you're looking at a very close, intensive scan similar to what was done for Sharleyan with Merlin's medical suite. Anything like that would very obviously require some obvious behavioral changes such as stopping 'in prayer' in a specified location in an entryway or something. Possible, but unlikely.

Nanites are tiny, by their very nature as molecular machines. They physically can't support large power sources, and I doubt that they're powered by radioisotope power systems (like NASA uses for various deep space probes and landers) for very obvious reasons. Since you can't just stick a battery onboard (at least one that's useful for much of anything), you need to look at alternatives.

Most likely, molecular machines used internally would be powered chemically through the hydrolysis of ATP. That's how the various molecular machines, such as ribosomes and kinesin or ATPase, are powered. If you already have the metabolic processes available, it'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. Even if it did increase the subject's caloric needs, possibly significantly. You could also use broadcast power, which would make sense in industrial applications, but not so much inside a human body.

Chemical power systems would be pretty much impossible to detect, let alone differentiate from normal cellular functions. Assuming you could detect trace metals externally, the same would apply there as well.

The bigger issue would be their communications, but again, size is the limiting factor here. You can't mount a very powerful transmitter on a molecular machine. Assuming they don't communicate chemically like you see with cell signaling (entirely possible), you'd have to have a very low-power mesh network that uses some variant of a flooding technique (since nanites are constantly moving through the body). Those sorts of signals would be absurdly low-power, and unlikely to ever be picked up outside the human body. Mainly because our body chemistry is very good at absorbing RF signals. Even external transmitters can be significantly degraded when positioned close to our bodies.

IF nanites were able to be detected, it wouldn't be because of their physical presence, but their communications. And even that's awfully iffy. I'd hope that military nanites had some sort of functionality to deactivate in certain situations, but that would require some sort of external signal since none of them have neural implants. No doubt RFC will surprise us all when the book is finally published :).

The other thing is that while the Inquisition's dungeons are located at the Temple complex, they're a native addition and not part of the original building. So it wouldn't be tied into their sensor systems in any case. I suppose the Temple's systems could have installed some wireless systems, but that seems needlessly dangerous on their part considering that any native buildings would require more human maintenance. It's not like the Temple systems could tell the humans that the device they found is divine and not demonic in nature.
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by McGuiness   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:53 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
McGuiness wrote:I'd guess that OWL has a SNARC on Mistress Marzho at all times, and that anything out of the ordinary is flagged for immediate attention by Nahrmahn in hyper-heuristic mode.
Problem with that. It WON'T get "immediate attention" because SNARCs operating in Zion are operating under radio silence in order to avoid detection by Temple sensors. They are thus not in real time contact with OWL, but instead use a dead drop system to get information out and instructions in. Which takes alot of TIME.

IOW, by the time OWL and Nahrman get word, it'll be faaar too late for the Seijins to do anything.
ARGH, how could I forget that?

Ok, perhaps we can hope that an individual SNARC is intelligent enough that it can be programmed to exit the city and file an emergency report in cases of kidnapping, for example.

Of course that would leave the good guys with absolutely no idea where the captured woman was taken...

Ok, I got nothin'... :(

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by McGuiness   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:03 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:Oh, I'm much more imaginative than that . . . . :twisted:

Although there is a little backstabbing in the current book, now that I think about it.
McGuiness wrote:Actually, I want to see Clyntahn spitted on a stake as bad as anyone, so if RFC decides that a stab in the back is the way to go, I'm good with it. As long as he dies slooooowly... :twisted:
COOL! RFC actually replied to one of my posts! That makes... roughly half a dozen times now IIRC.

It's always a thrill to know that your favorite author has read your speculations on his next novel, especially when he takes the time to comment about them personally.

Of course he usually points out where I'm wrong! :lol:

Hmm... so there will be backstabbing. That's usually Mab's territory, or the Charisian special ops troops...

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by Joat42   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:22 pm

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Bluestrike2 wrote:..snip..
The bigger issue would be their communications, but again, size is the limiting factor here. You can't mount a very powerful transmitter on a molecular machine. Assuming they don't communicate chemically like you see with cell signaling (entirely possible), you'd have to have a very low-power mesh network that uses some variant of a flooding technique (since nanites are constantly moving through the body). Those sorts of signals would be absurdly low-power, and unlikely to ever be picked up outside the human body. Mainly because our body chemistry is very good at absorbing RF signals. Even external transmitters can be significantly degraded when positioned close to our bodies.
..snip..

Yes, a human body is pretty good at dampening RF-signals. But wouldn't you know, there is actually a way for our body to enhance signals too. For example, your wireless key for your car alarm - if you put it in contact with your head you more or less double the distance you can turn on/off the alarm. This is because the water-molecules enhances the signal by sympathetic resonance.

So, it's not as simple as saying a body only absorbs RF energy. If done right it can actually enhance a signal.

---
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:44 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Yes, a human body is pretty good at dampening RF-signals. But wouldn't you know, there is actually a way for our body to enhance signals too. For example, your wireless key for your car alarm - if you put it in contact with your head you more or less double the distance you can turn on/off the alarm. This is because the water-molecules enhances the signal by sympathetic resonance.

So, it's not as simple as saying a body only absorbs RF energy. If done right it can actually enhance a signal.


Or you wear a relay, perhaps disguised as something innocuous, like jewelry? That's certainly what Sharleyan and Cayleb do. I'd expect every member of the Inner Circle to be carrying similar relays disguised as things they normally have on them.
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by WeberFan   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:02 pm

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SNIP
McGuiness wrote:Actually, I want to see Clyntahn spitted on a stake as bad as anyone, so if RFC decides that a stab in the back is the way to go, I'm good with it. As long as he dies slooooowly... :twisted:


A SHORT stake...
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by WeberFan   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:18 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
McGuiness wrote:I'd guess that OWL has a SNARC on Mistress Marzho at all times, and that anything out of the ordinary is flagged for immediate attention by Nahrmahn in hyper-heuristic mode.



Problem with that. It WON'T get "immediate attention" because SNARCs operating in Zion are operating under radio silence in order to avoid detection by Temple sensors. They are thus not in real time contact with OWL, but instead use a dead drop system to get information out and instructions in. Which takes alot of TIME.

IOW, by the time OWL and Nahrman get word, it'll be faaar too late for the Seijins to do anything.

You may or may not be right, Evilauthor.
There ARE remotes operating in "read only" mode in Zion IIRC, but I think they are only those that are closest to the Temple. I can't recall if we ever learned where Mistress Marzho's shop was with respect to the Temple. Further, Merlin HAS actively used Federation Tech in Zion before (the tractor that "enabled" the Archbishop's fall down the stairs). But we know that THAT wasn't too close to the Temple. I could go either way on this.

But from RFC's lead-in statement about "having things their own way" I'm not feeling too good about Mistress Marzho's prospects...
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:32 pm

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WeberFan wrote:You may or may not be right, Evilauthor.
There ARE remotes operating in "read only" mode in Zion IIRC, but I think they are only those that are closest to the Temple. I can't recall if we ever learned where Mistress Marzho's shop was with respect to the Temple. Further, Merlin HAS actively used Federation Tech in Zion before (the tractor that "enabled" the Archbishop's fall down the stairs). But we know that THAT wasn't too close to the Temple. I could go either way on this.

But from RFC's lead-in statement about "having things their own way" I'm not feeling too good about Mistress Marzho's prospects...


There's a difference between "operating Federation tech" and "operating Federation tech that's actively broadcasting traceable signals". The hand tractor beam and even Merlin himself aren't broadcasting radio even at Marzho's shop or Nynian's brothel.

The issue here is RADIO, and the need to avoid emitting anything that the Temple sensors would identify as artificial radio signal. Get sufficient distance, and you can mask transmissions as part of the background. But anything in Zion is in the "no transmissions" zone. The five mile limit is where Merlin doesn't dare operate even PASSIVE non-transmitting Fed technology for fear that spurious emissions might be picked up by the Temple.
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Re: A waaaaay out of order snippet
Post by Joat42   » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:11 pm

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I wonder if this snippet is connected to the assassinated vicars in MTAT. There where a handful of vicars that where assassinated and Rayno explains to Clyntahn that they haven't got a clue who is doing it.

MTAT, May 896, Chapter 12 wrote:So I think we may assume the fundamental loyalty of our own people, yet at the same time we must proceed carefully, restricting the truth about our suspicions to those we know we can trust. Proceeding in that way will require us to go slowly and cautiously, which means there will be no quick answers, Your Grace. But I believe we can gradually spread our net wider and wider, possibly without explaining even to our investigators and agents exactly what it is we’re looking for, while maintaining security about the broader threat we believe exists.

So it's likely after a long time looking for clues they finally managed to find a thread to pull.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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