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Aircraft question

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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:00 am

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ggrosskopf wrote:
The modern slide rule was invented in the mid-1800s. NACA didn't come along until 1915. And how do you think they determined the performance characteristics of the various airfoil shapes? They took pictures of the colored smoke flowing around them in wind tunnels, and THEN did the calculations.

George


Exactly. This would NOT be completely impossible without the photography and electrical sensors&controls for test equipment, but it would be very, VERY hard to do. Either it would took decades to just obtain the basic data, or Merlin&Co would be forced to deal with complete implausibility of their own "someone just invented this, honest!".
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:30 am

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Dilandu wrote:Exactly. This would NOT be completely impossible without the photography and electrical sensors&controls for test equipment, but it would be very, VERY hard to do. Either it would took decades to just obtain the basic data, or Merlin&Co would be forced to deal with complete implausibility of their own "someone just invented this, honest!".


I'm not all that sure that Merlin would have to divulge the basics of aerodynamics. The Writ limits power sources to "Wind, Water, and Muscle" -- Many of the principles of fluid dynamics are the same as principles of aerodynamics.

Things like Bernoulli's Principle could well be part of the Writ's teachings about windmills and waterwheels. It is a short leap of logic from "this makes the wind turn the windmill" to "turning the windmill makes air move like the wind."
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:34 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
I'm not all that sure that Merlin would have to divulge the basics of aerodynamics. The Writ limits power sources to "Wind, Water, and Muscle" -- Many of the principles of fluid dynamics are the same as principles of aerodynamics.

Things like Bernoulli's Principle could well be part of the Writ's teachings about windmills and waterwheels. It is a short leap of logic from "this makes the wind turn the windmill" to "turning the windmill makes air move like the wind."


Well, they already used fans for ventilation, so they clearly understood the connection. And ship's screws weren't actually that big revelation even for Dohlar.

But the problems aren't with propellers, they are with the wings. The aerodynamic of aircraft's wing isn't something that could be "juist invented" - it must be developed.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:00 am

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Dilandu wrote:But the problems aren't with propellers, they are with the wings. The aerodynamic of aircraft's wing isn't something that could be "juist invented" - it must be developed.


A propeller is just two airfoils rotating around an axis. If they understand Propellers, it is a small leap to Wings.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by saber964   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:03 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dilandu wrote:Exactly. This would NOT be completely impossible without the photography and electrical sensors&controls for test equipment, but it would be very, VERY hard to do. Either it would took decades to just obtain the basic data, or Merlin&Co would be forced to deal with complete implausibility of their own "someone just invented this, honest!".


I'm not all that sure that Merlin would have to divulge the basics of aerodynamics. The Writ limits power sources to "Wind, Water, and Muscle" -- Many of the principles of fluid dynamics are the same as principles of aerodynamics.

Things like Bernoulli's Principle could well be part of the Writ's teachings about windmills and waterwheels. It is a short leap of logic from "this makes the wind turn the windmill" to "turning the windmill makes air move like the wind."



IIRC the Wright Brothers built their own wind tunnel and used it to develop wing designs. They also built their own engine IIRC.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Castenea   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:06 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:A propeller is just two airfoils rotating around an axis. If they understand Propellers, it is a small leap to Wings.

While Dilandu may be exaggerating the differences, there is a lot between using the principles embodied in a propeller and building a wing efficient enough to carry a useful load (large man or >100Kilo).
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:21 pm

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saber964 wrote:IIRC the Wright Brothers built their own wind tunnel and used it to develop wing designs. They also built their own engine IIRC.


They also designed and built propellers that are almost as good as modern computer designed fixed propellers. I'm not sure how much their wind tunnel data figured into that design, but it had to have some effect.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Michael Everett   » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:48 pm

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If you have a wind tunnel, you don't need all the equations, you can simply use a rope and trial-and-error with wing shapes to see which ones generate enough lift for a given airspeed. Obviously, starting by copying Wyrvern's wings and testing variants would be the place to start.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:21 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:If you have a wind tunnel, you don't need all the equations, you can simply use a rope and trial-and-error with wing shapes to see which ones generate enough lift for a given airspeed. Obviously, starting by copying Wyrvern's wings and testing variants would be the place to start.


Oh yeah. As long as you have unlimited supply of test pilots. Because this way you wouldn't be able to work out the stability and control problems)

...The scream and a loud "BANG", followed by "CRASH" shook the walls of the Temple.
- Another one... - melancholy noticed Clyntahn, shuffling cards, - How many this morning?
- Eleventh, - recalled Duchrain, - Allayn, how this preformed?
- Not good, - replied Magwair from the window, - The last month record - those, who fly almost a mile before crashing - still hold...
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Aircraft question
Post by n7axw   » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:33 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Michael Everett wrote:If you have a wind tunnel, you don't need all the equations, you can simply use a rope and trial-and-error with wing shapes to see which ones generate enough lift for a given airspeed. Obviously, starting by copying Wyrvern's wings and testing variants would be the place to start.


Oh yeah. As long as you have unlimited supply of test pilots. Because this way you wouldn't be able to work out the stability and control problems)

...The scream and a loud "BANG", followed by "CRASH" shook the walls of the Temple.
- Another one... - melancholy noticed Clyntahn, shuffling cards, - How many this morning?
- Eleventh, - recalled Duchrain, - Allayn, how this preformed?
- Not good, - replied Magwair from the window, - The last month record - those, who fly almost a mile before crashing - still hold...



The Wrights worked systematically with kites and gliders along with observing birds, working with wind tunnels, etc. IIRC they didn't have a serious crackup that caused injury until the incident where they were demonstrating the plane for the government where Orville was seriously injured.

Don

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