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Aircraft question

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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:19 pm

C. O. Thompson
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DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
Nope.

We don't at this point know what is in the Testament of Schueler. At a guess, it will be Schueler's proof of his claims that Shan Wei was framed and Chihiro lied. All we have so far is his statements to the faithful gathered in his temple to celebrate the anniversary of the day his soul departed its used up mortal body and returned to God in Heaven.

From where I sit, this is a theological grenade with the pin pulled, and the ones it's being tossed at are the Vicarate in the Temple. If Schueler can provide convincing evidence Chihiro lied, a nasty can of worms is opened. Chihiro created the Writ under Langhorne's direction, and had the ability to edit the master copies in the Temple. If he changed the Writ after the fact to support his agenda, the entire Writ becomes open to question.

(One thing I do suspect will be in Schueler's Testimony will be an assertion that he did not write the Punishment that appears in his book, and that it was inserted after the fact by Chihiro against his wishes. If that's true, what else might Chihiro have changed?)

But there's a long way between that and the Proscriptions going away. Once the Vicarate wraps it's mind around the idea that Chihiro may have diddled the Writ after the fact, the likely approach will be "If Schueler is correct about Shan Wei, what parts of the Writ would have to have changed have to have changed to frame Shan Wei for being the Mother of Evil?" (And since the IC has access via Merlin to a copy of the Writ from before Armageddon Reef, what other changes are in the current version beyond0 th addition of teh Books of Chihiro and Schueler?)

And that will require the Vicarate to accept that was Schueler's apparition appearing in his temple, and it and his Testimony are not simply the work of Shan Wei.

(At a con, RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler being forthcoming. Lots of folks will be gobsmacked. The initial reaction of the Church of Charis will be "We just heard about this, and we have no more idea than you do what might be going on!", shading over to "There might be something to this...")

I'll be really surprised if Schueler's Testimony comes out and states the Writ is a lie and that humanity was not created on Safehold by God working through Langhorne, but was instead brought from elsewhere, and I don't expect his work to directly contradict the Proscriptions. There may be something to the effect that were were things God did not think humanity was ready to know when first created, and that knowledge needed to be held back till humanity was ready. This would fit the notion of Mother Church as shepherd for humanity, the same way parents don't tell kids stuff they don't think kid is old enough and knows enough to be able to handle it.

______
Dennis


Dennis,
If ideas were food for thought, I just gained 5 pounds.

Simply stated, the "book" was written by Owl, under the direction of one of the most diabolically cunning minds humankind ever produced (at least on that planet), with the specific goal to kick the door off the hinges so that humans can get ready to face the Gababa and win this time.

To David Weber I say Stay Safe and productive.

Charlie
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Louis R   » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:23 am

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Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:25 pm

One difficulty with your analysis - actually, with _both_ of your positions - is that, IIRC _doctrine_ is that each book of the Writ is that Archangel's own presentation of his/her teaching, written by them to preserve it for all time. IOW, no one on the planet, outside the Charisian Minions, has any reason to believe that Chihiro had anything whatsoever to do with any book but his own. Even if accepted, a statement that "Chihiro lied" will be applied only to what Chihiro is known _to Safehold_ to have said, done and written.

I'm not convinced that even something as straightforward as an attempt to invalidate the Punishment as a Chihiro interpolation wouldn't be sufficient reason to dismiss the entire episode as a manifestation of Shan Wei's, intended to deceive the Church into lightening up on her servants. Mind you, if the apparition is accepted as genuinely Schueler he would be presumed to know what should have been in his Book, but this could weigh heavily against acceptance.


DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
Nope.

We don't at this point know what is in the Testament of Schueler. At a guess, it will be Schueler's proof of his claims that Shan Wei was framed and Chihiro lied. All we have so far is his statements to the faithful gathered in his temple to celebrate the anniversary of the day his soul departed its used up mortal body and returned to God in Heaven.

From where I sit, this is a theological grenade with the pin pulled, and the ones it's being tossed at are the Vicarate in the Temple. If Schueler can provide convincing evidence Chihiro lied, a nasty can of worms is opened. Chihiro created the Writ under Langhorne's direction, and had the ability to edit the master copies in the Temple. If he changed the Writ after the fact to support his agenda, the entire Writ becomes open to question.

(One thing I do suspect will be in Schueler's Testimony will be an assertion that he did not write the Punishment that appears in his book, and that it was inserted after the fact by Chihiro against his wishes. If that's true, what else might Chihiro have changed?)

But there's a long way between that and the Proscriptions going away. Once the Vicarate wraps it's mind around the idea that Chihiro may have diddled the Writ after the fact, the likely approach will be "If Schueler is correct about Shan Wei, what parts of the Writ would have to have changed have to have changed to frame Shan Wei for being the Mother of Evil?" (And since the IC has access via Merlin to a copy of the Writ from before Armageddon Reef, what other changes are in the current version beyond0 th addition of teh Books of Chihiro and Schueler?)

And that will require the Vicarate to accept that was Schueler's apparition appearing in his temple, and it and his Testimony are not simply the work of Shan Wei.

(At a con, RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler being forthcoming. Lots of folks will be gobsmacked. The initial reaction of the Church of Charis will be "We just heard about this, and we have no more idea than you do what might be going on!", shading over to "There might be something to this...")

I'll be really surprised if Schueler's Testimony comes out and states the Writ is a lie and that humanity was not created on Safehold by God working through Langhorne, but was instead brought from elsewhere, and I don't expect his work to directly contradict the Proscriptions. There may be something to the effect that were were things God did not think humanity was ready to know when first created, and that knowledge needed to be held back till humanity was ready. This would fit the notion of Mother Church as shepherd for humanity, the same way parents don't tell kids stuff they don't think kid is old enough and knows enough to be able to handle it.

______
Dennis
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Michae   » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:04 am

Michae
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:47 am

DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
Nope.

We don't at this point know what is in the Testament of Schueler. At a guess, it will be Schueler's proof of his claims that Shan Wei was framed and Chihiro lied. All we have so far is his statements to the faithful gathered in his temple to celebrate the anniversary of the day his soul departed its used up mortal body and returned to God in Heaven.

From where I sit, this is a theological grenade with the pin pulled, and the ones it's being tossed at are the Vicarate in the Temple. If Schueler can provide convincing evidence Chihiro lied, a nasty can of worms is opened. Chihiro created the Writ under Langhorne's direction, and had the ability to edit the master copies in the Temple. If he changed the Writ after the fact to support his agenda, the entire Writ becomes open to question.

(One thing I do suspect will be in Schueler's Testimony will be an assertion that he did not write the Punishment that appears in his book, and that it was inserted after the fact by Chihiro against his wishes. If that's true, what else might Chihiro have changed?)

But there's a long way between that and the Proscriptions going away. Once the Vicarate wraps it's mind around the idea that Chihiro may have diddled the Writ after the fact, the likely approach will be "If Schueler is correct about Shan Wei, what parts of the Writ would have to have changed have to have changed to frame Shan Wei for being the Mother of Evil?" (And since the IC has access via Merlin to a copy of the Writ from before Armageddon Reef, what other changes are in the current version beyond0 th addition of teh Books of Chihiro and Schueler?)

And that will require the Vicarate to accept that was Schueler's apparition appearing in his temple, and it and his Testimony are not simply the work of Shan Wei.

(At a con, RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler being forthcoming. Lots of folks will be gobsmacked. The initial reaction of the Church of Charis will be "We just heard about this, and we have no more idea than you do what might be going on!", shading over to "There might be something to this...")

I'll be really surprised if Schueler's Testimony comes out and states the Writ is a lie and that humanity was not created on Safehold by God working through Langhorne, but was instead brought from elsewhere, and I don't expect his work to directly contradict the Proscriptions. There may be something to the effect that were were things God did not think humanity was ready to know when first created, and that knowledge needed to be held back till humanity was ready. This would fit the notion of Mother Church as shepherd for humanity, the same way parents don't tell kids stuff they don't think kid is old enough and knows enough to be able to handle it.

______
Dennis
[/quote]

The question is what do you think the likelihood of Schueler's apparition being accepted without triggering another major fanatical war? I've been re-reading the series and by the sound of it,the planet is only just starting to recover from the last one. Along with the Siddarmark situation, I don't think Safehold could afford another major war on that scale right now..
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:02 pm

C. O. Thompson
Captain of the List

Posts: 683
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 1:32 pm
Location: Thompson, CT USA

[/quote]

The question is what do you think the likelihood of Schueler's apparition being accepted without triggering another major fanatical war? I've been re-reading the series and by the sound of it,the planet is only just starting to recover from the last one. Along with the Siddarmark situation, I don't think Safehold could afford another major war on that scale right now..[/quote]

A fair question...
I think that the "proof" which was provided will answer that question.
On the one hand, we are looking at a society that learned that the church and the writ were the authority...
On the other hand the aftermath of the religious war left a lot of open woulds which have yet to heal.

I think that OWL and Norman Bates have invested hundreds of high speed minutes in solving this. Either there will be a circular logic that leads the vast majority of the population to the desired answer or they won't and I would bet next weeks beer money that they win the debate.

But hey... I have been wrong before ;)
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Jeslis   » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:28 pm

Jeslis
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:53 pm

Michae wrote:
The question is what do you think the likelihood of Schueler's apparition being accepted without triggering another major fanatical war? I've been re-reading the series and by the sound of it,the planet is only just starting to recover from the last one. Along with the Siddarmark situation, I don't think Safehold could afford another major war on that scale right now..



Ermm, You do remember who is writing these books? Of course there is going to be a war! Its military sci-fi. We aren't going to have a touchy feely book.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Louis R   » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:15 pm

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1192
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:25 pm

Well, yes, we've assured of more war, but the question is whether it will follow on directly from the Apparition, or mark the final breaking of the COGA, in which case it won't begin until there's a significant element of the population ready to see that - and die for it.

Unlike some people, Himself isn't particularly thrilled by the idea, much less the depiction, of megadeaths as a plot device. He won't put Safehold through that multiple times unless it serves an essential purpose. And, AFAICT, at this point it wouldn't: while the position of the Church as the guardian of the Writ has been weakened, the process of undermining the Writ itself hasn't properly begun. Whatever the true origin of the apparition, it can't at this point do more than get the ball rolling. Something that need not have been its intended purpose, BTW. There are rats in the wainscot, and if they didn't set this up, their presence won't have been allowed for by whoever did.

Jeslis wrote:
Michae wrote:
The question is what do you think the likelihood of Schueler's apparition being accepted without triggering another major fanatical war? I've been re-reading the series and by the sound of it,the planet is only just starting to recover from the last one. Along with the Siddarmark situation, I don't think Safehold could afford another major war on that scale right now..



Ermm, You do remember who is writing these books? Of course there is going to be a war! Its military sci-fi. We aren't going to have a touchy feely book.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Erls   » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:19 am

Erls
Commander

Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:09 pm

What will really get the ball rolling is the following:

1- Different figures in Charis, none of them publicly prominent at the time (but in the inner circle), re-publishing manuscripts and pamphlets of great historical importance. Think of the works of Locke, Mills, Smith, and the other great thinkers of the Enlightenment. Or go back further to the Greeks. And, of course, you can't forget about someone like Hayek - The Road to Serfdom would be highly relevant to Safehold.

2- Basically, Charis start introducing all these thoughts and ideas into their Empire - where they will immediately be commented upon (favorably) by the leaders of the Empire and the Church.

3- The re-invention of the scientific method. Basically, the Royal College will publish the process they are using to make their discoveries. This will start being taught in schools, and the populace will begin examining the "Why" behind what is in "The Book."

4- Together, the introduction of philosophy and the scientific method will, over time, cause a great many inhabitants of Safehold to see that some books are basically recitations of scientific fact for the people - and that using God's Gift (Free Thought), they can be improved upon.

Right there, once the idea that what is written in the book can be improved upon, undermines everything else in every other book.
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