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Aircraft question

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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:51 am

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Louis R wrote:The two chemical processes involve reduction to the metal using metallic potassium and sodium, respectively. Given the electronic structure of alumminium, the existence of other non-electrolytic methods is... unlikely. I won't say impossible, only because I haven't run the calculations, but I'll stand solidly behind 'extremely improbable'

So the problem of obtaining industrial quantities of aluminium reduces to one of obtaining industrial quantities of metallic sodium - also non-electrolytically. And handling it, of course.

That's not actually all that difficult: it simply requires smelting sodium carbonate with coke at temperatures above 1100C. Any volunteers?



There are other, older purely chemical processes to refine Aluminum. Unfortunately, they are slower and more expensive.

The cap on the Washington Monument is Aluminum that was refined chemically. At the time, it was more expensive than Gold. The monument was completed 4 years before electrical refining was developed.
[/quote]

Thank you Louis R.,

Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:33 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:
Louis R wrote:The two chemical processes involve reduction to the metal using metallic potassium and sodium, respectively. Given the electronic structure of alumminium, the existence of other non-electrolytic methods is... unlikely. I won't say impossible, only because I haven't run the calculations, but I'll stand solidly behind 'extremely improbable'

So the problem of obtaining industrial quantities of aluminium reduces to one of obtaining industrial quantities of metallic sodium - also non-electrolytically. And handling it, of course.

That's not actually all that difficult: it simply requires smelting sodium carbonate with coke at temperatures above 1100C. Any volunteers?



There are other, older purely chemical processes to refine Aluminum. Unfortunately, they are slower and more expensive.

The cap on the Washington Monument is Aluminum that was refined chemically. At the time, it was more expensive than Gold. The monument was completed 4 years before electrical refining was developed.


Thank you Louis R.,

Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??[/quote]

problem is that the OBS might not be so impressed with that! :-)
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Louis R   » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:53 am

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What was actually said was that it wasn't Shan Wei who fell, but Chihiro who lied. To whom, about what, isn't specified.

It can't have been about Shan Wei rebelling against Langhorne's authority - the simple fact is that she did. So maybe about her reasons? That's likely, but the problem is that nobody outside the command crew would have had any idea what those reasons really were. And to this day, nobody other than Merlin's hearty minions has a clue. No one anywhere on Safehold is going to hear that statement and leap to the conclusion that if Chihiro lied it was about _everything_, and the Writ, and with it their entire world view, society and cultures, should be chucked into the nearest dumpster.

The foundations of the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng will be intact for some time to come [even lacking any enforcement mechanism independent of the Church]. And even in the somewhat unlikely event that all of humanity comes to whole-hearted acceptance of the Merlin Version, a thousand years from now Safehold's replacement for the Flat Earth Society will be arguing that Langhorne was right, dammit!

C. O. Thompson wrote:
Thank you Louis R.,

Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:42 pm

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Clip
No one anywhere on Safehold is going to hear that statement and leap to the conclusion that if Chihiro lied it was about _everything_, and the Writ, and with it their entire world view, society and cultures, should be chucked into the nearest dumpster.
Clip

OK But, the book that was left behind with the "God paper" and jewels has to have something to slap the face of the persistent zealots.

Naharman and Owl would not let that sit unchecked.
And Chihiro set up the rules that Charis was in violation of.

Look at us,
The Grand Master will tell the story, if and when he gets to it.

Stay Safe and find peace...
it is closer than you think if you look in the right direction.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:30 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
What Charis can't currently do is produce aircraft such a vessel might carry. A major blocker is lack of suitable engines. A steam engine will simply be too big and heavy for such aircraft. You need internal combustion engines. Charis has a developing oil industry which could produce something like aviation gas, and likely has the ability to produce diesel engines, but runs into the problem of how you ignite the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder to provide the power stroke.

That's done using spark plugs... :P
______
Dennis


Are you trolling Dennis? We have been over this one again and again. Diesel engines do NOT need or use spark plugs. They compress the air in the cylinder so much it gets hot enough to spontaneously ignite the fuel when it is injected. Google it if you doubt me. You can start the engine by turning it over using a variety of means, including compressed air and, I should think, an external steam engine.
(You never usually want to turn off and restart your engine when you are actually flying, of course.)
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:25 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
Are you trolling Dennis? We have been over this one again and again. Diesel engines do NOT need or use spark plugs. They compress the air in the cylinder so much it gets hot enough to spontaneously ignite the fuel when it is injected. Google it if you doubt me. You can start the engine by turning it over using a variety of means, including compressed air and, I should think, an external steam engine.
(You never usually want to turn off and restart your engine when you are actually flying, of course.)


You could probably use an old crank, who is turning a handle to turn the crankshaft.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:18 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
Randomiser wrote:
Are you trolling Dennis? We have been over this one again and again. Diesel engines do NOT need or use spark plugs. They compress the air in the cylinder so much it gets hot enough to spontaneously ignite the fuel when it is injected. Google it if you doubt me. You can start the engine by turning it over using a variety of means, including compressed air and, I should think, an external steam engine.
(You never usually want to turn off and restart your engine when you are actually flying, of course.)


You could probably use an old crank, who is turning a handle to turn the crankshaft.


I believe the latest thread is point to the need and advantage to think outside of the box.

Much of we accept as the way it is done is based on the limitations of capital to develop alternatives.
The cost of an electric car and highly efficient charging system might be lower if the lobbyist for the oil company were not so effectively controlling tax incentives so that they get a break for keeping the oil flowing, even when there is plenty of evidence we ought to change before we run out.

Anyone who is going to try to float the Free Market system to me, better give me a case of single malt or a bag of recreational weed before they start flapping their lips about it... there is no other way that I will be able to listen long enough otherwise.

Them as have are keeping it and making us as don't have, pay for it.

But I digress... the point here is that there are alternatives and like most new tech, things get more efficient and cheaper as the market for the new grows.

Remember the first IBM PC where we thought 256k was a lot and we had to load all our work on to actual floppy disks or loose it at the end of a day??

I DO. Now my phone is smarter and quicker than the IBM I used to design a data base to schedule a team of 10 full time employees to provide service work in a bakery and to track inventory back in 1982 and the phone is 10% of the cost.

If we want to solve problems, we solve them.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:53 pm

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Dauntless wrote:Why does the aircraft have to be made of aluminium?

The Mosquito was one of the fastest and most flexible light bombers the Allies had.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito

Airframe mostly from WOOD
Yep.

And while initially scoffed at, the Mosquito became an in demand aircraft configurable for a variety of missions. An important early one was photo reconnaissance, with a cameraman in the nose compartment. IIRC, other models got equipped with quad machine gun packages in the nose and were used as night fighter interceptors.

The were also notably fast. I read about an impromptu race where a crew flying a twin engine bomber that was noted for speed (a B-26, I think) had a friendly little match with a Mosquito going back to base. The Mosquito blew past the B-26 flying upside down on one engine, and you may assume the Mosquito crew were thumbing their noses as they passed.
______
Dennis
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:15 am

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lol. hadn't heard that particular story before but I can totally believe it.

The mosquito was used for a number of daylight bombing raids (including propaganda leaflet drops on BERLIN) and when you consider that the RAF had switched almost exclusively to NIGHT bombing to reduce losses that says much.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:57 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:Now two things to keep in mind.
1) if the aluminum was the only material and the proscriptions prevent electricity then the time and cost factor to use alternatives will be justified.

2) I have to re-read it but I seem to remember that the Arch Angle Shuler miraculously appeared on a snowy night to tell the church that Shan Wei was not the bad guy so the ban on electricity is "up in smoke"

Ain't it??
Nope.

We don't at this point know what is in the Testament of Schueler. At a guess, it will be Schueler's proof of his claims that Shan Wei was framed and Chihiro lied. All we have so far is his statements to the faithful gathered in his temple to celebrate the anniversary of the day his soul departed its used up mortal body and returned to God in Heaven.

From where I sit, this is a theological grenade with the pin pulled, and the ones it's being tossed at are the Vicarate in the Temple. If Schueler can provide convincing evidence Chihiro lied, a nasty can of worms is opened. Chihiro created the Writ under Langhorne's direction, and had the ability to edit the master copies in the Temple. If he changed the Writ after the fact to support his agenda, the entire Writ becomes open to question.

(One thing I do suspect will be in Schueler's Testimony will be an assertion that he did not write the Punishment that appears in his book, and that it was inserted after the fact by Chihiro against his wishes. If that's true, what else might Chihiro have changed?)

But there's a long way between that and the Proscriptions going away. Once the Vicarate wraps it's mind around the idea that Chihiro may have diddled the Writ after the fact, the likely approach will be "If Schueler is correct about Shan Wei, what parts of the Writ would have to have changed have to have changed to frame Shan Wei for being the Mother of Evil?" (And since the IC has access via Merlin to a copy of the Writ from before Armageddon Reef, what other changes are in the current version beyond0 th addition of teh Books of Chihiro and Schueler?)

And that will require the Vicarate to accept that was Schueler's apparition appearing in his temple, and it and his Testimony are not simply the work of Shan Wei.

(At a con, RFC mentioned the Testimony of Schueler being forthcoming. Lots of folks will be gobsmacked. The initial reaction of the Church of Charis will be "We just heard about this, and we have no more idea than you do what might be going on!", shading over to "There might be something to this...")

I'll be really surprised if Schueler's Testimony comes out and states the Writ is a lie and that humanity was not created on Safehold by God working through Langhorne, but was instead brought from elsewhere, and I don't expect his work to directly contradict the Proscriptions. There may be something to the effect that were were things God did not think humanity was ready to know when first created, and that knowledge needed to be held back till humanity was ready. This would fit the notion of Mother Church as shepherd for humanity, the same way parents don't tell kids stuff they don't think kid is old enough and knows enough to be able to handle it.

______
Dennis
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