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Aircraft question

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Re: Aircraft question
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:26 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
BTW where exactly is Mantorath - I never quite worked that out?


Open up your copy of _Like a Mighty Army_; the second map in the book is for the Sidddarmark Republic. Montorah is a port city on Manotarah Bay, which is empties into the Gulf of Tarot. Mantorah itself is either in Markan Province or Transhar Province (it appears to be right on the border).


Thanks - :-)
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:32 pm

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Forgive me if this has already been covered. I haven't read everything here.

Can Charis build aircraft carriers?

They can do a steam catapult but it would be silly to put a wooden aircraft onto one. There are much cheaper and simpler ways to turn wood into splinters.

An aluminum airframe requires aluminum and I know of no way to make aluminum without electricity.

Other metals are way heavy for aircraft use.

Could they do a technological leapfrog and go directly to composites? An autoclave should be compatible with the Proscriptions.

I'm just imagining Cayleb feasting his eyes on historical videos of what carrier aircraft can do.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:14 am

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Expert snuggler wrote:Forgive me if this has already been covered. I haven't read everything here.

Can Charis build aircraft carriers?

They can do a steam catapult but it would be silly to put a wooden aircraft onto one. There are much cheaper and simpler ways to turn wood into splinters.

An aluminum airframe requires aluminum and I know of no way to make aluminum without electricity.

Other metals are way heavy for aircraft use.

Could they do a technological leapfrog and go directly to composites? An autoclave should be compatible with the Proscriptions.

I'm just imagining Cayleb feasting his eyes on historical videos of what carrier aircraft can do.


Huh! :?: Expert snuggler... I read your post and the phrase "An aluminum airframe requires aluminum and I know of no way to make aluminum without electricity. "
Jumped out at me.

Are we sure that is true? It might simply be that an alternative plan was squashed in development.
I mean I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theory nut but... there is plenty of evidence how new technologies are nipped in the bud overtly and covertly.

Are you SURE that some other chemical reaction could not produce aluminum?

Anybody??
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:48 am

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C. O. Thompson wrote:Huh! :?: Expert snuggler... I read your post and the phrase "An aluminum airframe requires aluminum and I know of no way to make aluminum without electricity. "
Jumped out at me.

Are we sure that is true? It might simply be that an alternative plan was squashed in development.
I mean I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theory nut but... there is plenty of evidence how new technologies are nipped in the bud overtly and covertly.

Are you SURE that some other chemical reaction could not produce aluminum?

Anybody??
See https://www.tomago.com.au/about-us/about-aluminium for an overview of how alunimum is produced.

The tl;dr form is that electrolysis is a necessary part of the refining process. So no electricity means no aluminum. (I am unaware of anything that might be used instead.)

The good part is that once produced it can be recycled almost endlessly. The bad part is that making it in the first place requires major industrial development with attendant capital and resource costs.
______
Dennis
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:59 am

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Expert snuggler wrote:Forgive me if this has already been covered. I haven't read everything here.

Can Charis build aircraft carriers?
They could technically build them. And they might not require steam catapults. (Early aircraft carriers didn't have them because the propeller driven aircraft didn't require the boost to become airborne.)

What Charisc can't currently do is produce aircraft such a vessel might carry. A major blocker is lack of suitable engines. A steam engine will simply be too big and heavy for such aircraft. You need internal combustion engines. Charis has a developing oil industry which could produce something like aviation gas, and likely has the ability to produce diesel engines, but runs into the problem of how you ignite the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder to provide the power stroke.

That's done using spark plugs... :P
______
Dennis
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:15 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:Huh! :?: Expert snuggler... I read your post and the phrase "An aluminum airframe requires aluminum and I know of no way to make aluminum without electricity. "
Jumped out at me.

Are we sure that is true? It might simply be that an alternative plan was squashed in development.
I mean I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theory nut but... there is plenty of evidence how new technologies are nipped in the bud overtly and covertly.

Are you SURE that some other chemical reaction could not produce aluminum?

Anybody??
See https://www.tomago.com.au/about-us/about-aluminium for an overview of how alunimum is produced.

The tl;dr form is that electrolysis is a necessary part of the refining process. So no electricity means no aluminum. (I am unaware of anything that might be used instead.)

The good part is that once produced it can be recycled almost endlessly. The bad part is that making it in the first place requires major industrial development with attendant capital and resource costs.
______
Dennis


OK Dennis,

But the article you sent, while correct, explains what we know that will work.
My question is more on the lines... have we thought outside of the box or have we been told there is no there, there?!

Another example of this is, would something other than aluminum work?
Say plastics for example. We know they were developing a petrochemical industry and they understood distilling process so the resins needed are within reach.
It is possible to add carbon and perhaps some other materials to strengthen plastic enough.

I think that we need to be on our guard against accepting the tried and true, especially when the means to produce are controlled by the government like the ban on electricity was controlled by the church on Safehold.

While I freely admit that there is more than one way to skin a cat... they all require a cat
But what is the real goal? To skin a cat or to have a fur about the size and texture of a cat???

Often I find that I am not as clear in my expression of a concept as I am to envision the concept.
I can see the forest but get lost in the trees. ;-)


AVOID THE MOB and pray for your enemies.
Seek justice for the orphans and widows.

Stay Safe!!
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by zyffyr   » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:08 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:See https://www.tomago.com.au/about-us/about-aluminium for an overview of how alunimum is produced.

The tl;dr form is that electrolysis is a necessary part of the refining process. So no electricity means no aluminum. (I am unaware of anything that might be used instead.)

The good part is that once produced it can be recycled almost endlessly. The bad part is that making it in the first place requires major industrial development with attendant capital and resource costs.
______
Dennis


There are other, older purely chemical processes to refine Aluminum. Unfortunately, they are slower and more expensive.

The cap on the Washington Monument is Aluminum that was refined chemically. At the time, it was more expensive than Gold. The monument was completed 4 years before electrical refining was developed.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Louis R   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:59 am

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The two chemical processes involve reduction to the metal using metallic potassium and sodium, respectively. Given the electronic structure of alumminium, the existence of other non-electrolytic methods is... unlikely. I won't say impossible, only because I haven't run the calculations, but I'll stand solidly behind 'extremely improbable'

So the problem of obtaining industrial quantities of aluminium reduces to one of obtaining industrial quantities of metallic sodium - also non-electrolytically. And handling it, of course.

That's not actually all that difficult: it simply requires smelting sodium carbonate with coke at temperatures above 1100C. Any volunteers?


zyffyr wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:See https://www.tomago.com.au/about-us/about-aluminium for an overview of how alunimum is produced.

The tl;dr form is that electrolysis is a necessary part of the refining process. So no electricity means no aluminum. (I am unaware of anything that might be used instead.)

The good part is that once produced it can be recycled almost endlessly. The bad part is that making it in the first place requires major industrial development with attendant capital and resource costs.
______
Dennis


There are other, older purely chemical processes to refine Aluminum. Unfortunately, they are slower and more expensive.

The cap on the Washington Monument is Aluminum that was refined chemically. At the time, it was more expensive than Gold. The monument was completed 4 years before electrical refining was developed.
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:57 am

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zyffyr wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:See https://www.tomago.com.au/about-us/about-aluminium for an overview of how alunimum is produced.

The tl;dr form is that electrolysis is a necessary part of the refining process. So no electricity means no aluminum. (I am unaware of anything that might be used instead.)

The good part is that once produced it can be recycled almost endlessly. The bad part is that making it in the first place requires major industrial development with attendant capital and resource costs.
______
Dennis


There are other, older purely chemical processes to refine Aluminum. Unfortunately, they are slower and more expensive.

The cap on the Washington Monument is Aluminum that was refined chemically. At the time, it was more expensive than Gold. The monument was completed 4 years before electrical refining was developed.


[Spoiler alert]

I seem to remember reading a detective fiction book [I think it was one of the Lord Peter Wimsey series by Dorothy Sayers] that revolved around that idea.

People were being murdered to find/solve the clues to a serious treasure stashed away by some Victorian millionaire. He had gathered a large amount of the most precious metal available and hid it in the floor of some building.

Of course the hunters thought there was this vast disk of gold or maybe platinum just waiting to be found.

As you may guess it turned out to be chemically made aluminium :-)
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Re: Aircraft question
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:59 am

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Why does the aircraft have to be made of aluminium?

The Mosquito was one of the fastest and most flexible light bombers the Allies had.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito

Airframe mostly from WOOD

Still have the engine problem, particularly the means to ignite the engine.
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