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Altered books(spoilers)

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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Easternmystic   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:27 am

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SYED wrote:we know their holy book and the testimonies were altered from the originals, I wonder if the temple titself retains copies of the original texts. Zion makes the best religious books, what if their shipments suddenly had copies of those unadulterated books among them? It should show the church has altered the truth for a long time, and the battle of good and evil was more of a civil war. None of them directly mention advanced tech, just a the true version of the holy war.
Just like the news sheets, if made forbidden, it just makes other curious.


After the war, The remaining archangels announce that the testimonies and writ have been revised and hand out the new versions inexchange for the old versions. Very few old versions would be left and after a thousand years any that weren't stored in a non-oxidizing atmosphere would be dust.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Louis R   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:40 am

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More than likely, it was already happening before the war, at least for the detailed administrative and technical Writ. Recall that the original plan assumed that the Archangels would be tweaking the system, which probably means some changes to the Writ itself. They would allow for that in some way, and if it were me, it would be a way that got people used to the idea - most likely deliberate omissions or incomprehensible bits that could be 'adapted to the capacities of Man'. Future changes could then be explained as 'you have grown faster and further than we had hoped for'. While that might weaken the perfection and immutability of the Writ, it does make it clear whose exclusive right it is to make necessary changes - and it also leaves succeeding generations to make the inference that the Writ is now in its most perfect possible state, as the last Archangels wouldn't have withdrawn leaving it unfinished.

Easternmystic wrote:
SYED wrote:we know their holy book and the testimonies were altered from the originals, I wonder if the temple titself retains copies of the original texts. Zion makes the best religious books, what if their shipments suddenly had copies of those unadulterated books among them? It should show the church has altered the truth for a long time, and the battle of good and evil was more of a civil war. None of them directly mention advanced tech, just a the true version of the holy war.
Just like the news sheets, if made forbidden, it just makes other curious.


After the war, The remaining archangels announce that the testimonies and writ have been revised and hand out the new versions inexchange for the old versions. Very few old versions would be left and after a thousand years any that weren't stored in a non-oxidizing atmosphere would be dust.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Tararoys   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:55 am

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:SYED wrote:

It should show the church has altered the truth for a long time, and the battle of good and evil was more of a civil war.

I've always been dubious about the altered books. There were millions of Adams and Eves, all of whom were literate and many of whom recorded their testimonies. Then there was the writ and hundreds or thousands of copies across all of the cities of the world. Even with an organisation as oppressive as the inquisition, how do you replace them all? How do you insure that there exists nothing like the Ste. Zherneau repositories by people who were merely revering the scriptures? How about people who take notes during the homilies? For example, according to http://www.str.org/articles/is-the-new-testament-text-reliable#.Vi_-3m5Z9p8 even if every copy of the bible were somehow magically destroyed, even so nearly the entire new testament can be reconstructed from patristic quotations.

~Tonto


The remaining Angels had access to a great deal of advanced technology. They were able to build the temple, for example. Owl is a highly capable forger, spy, and all around big brother, and he was never designed to do any of that. He was designed to sling missiles. If the Angels had an AI or several AIs designed to be big brother, those AIs could keep an eye on everyone on the planet. So what if people wrote journals: I don't remember what I wrote last week, much less years ago, in my journal, and a really nasty (but effective) truck could be to use the AIs to strategically replace pages of your diary with slightly altered sentences written in your own handwriting. If they can do that, they could easily convince you that your memory was faulty, not that someone was manipulating you.

There is also one more problem: every single false gospel or change can be attributed directly to Shan Wei,her minions, and her influence in the wirld. My family has an extensive collection of family history, and, to put it bluntly, some of my ancestors were jerks by modern standards and irredeemable sinners by the standards of the day. We don't go out of our way to mention those ancestors in our official histories, and there's always the temptation to creatively edit away the nastier bits. Imagine if you were reading your grandpa's book and found something you knew was clearly touched by Shan-Wei. For oh-so-many reasons, that book or set of papers could (and probably would) be quietly burned.

between the AI and the inquisition, I find the suppression plausible.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Tonto Silerheels   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:59 pm

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Tararoys wrote:

If the Angels had an AI or several AIs designed to be big brother, those AIs could keep an eye on everyone on the planet.

We know that didn't happen. If it were possible then the CoGA wouldn't have restored the memory of Adams, making them into seijins, and sending them off to ferret out the demons. Instead they would have sent a tiny remote into the demons' ears and detonate them remotely. The Sisters of Seijin Kohdy wouldn't have been able to hide seijin Kohdy's body. There would have been two final rakurai of the war against the fallen--one of them in the Mountains of Light. Ste. Zherneau wouldn't have been able to write his journal and keep it in the monastery in Tellesberg all of those years. It would have been "sanitised" just like all of those Writs.

~Tonto
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Tonto Silerheels   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:28 pm

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n7axw wrote:

Wait until the Adams and Eves are gone. The originals are in the Temple. Whenever there is a discrepancy between a copy and the original, rule automatically in favor of the original.

That's not enough. Someday, prior to the great switcharoonie, Fr. Zhai writes to Br. Kai, encouraging him to continue fighting the good fight. In so doing, he quotes the book of Sondheim 5:8--6:5. On the day of TGS, the archangels add ten verses to the end on Sondheim 5. The question that arises is why didn't Fr. Zhai quote Sondheim 5: 13-22? In fact, no sources prior to YOG 175 mention Sondheim 5: 13-22. It's extraordinarily strange because Sondheim 5: 13-22 adds such a major tenet to the belief structure of the CoGA. (If it hadn't, then Chihiro wouldn't have taken the trouble to add it.)

Not only that, but as his Academician Dissertation, Fr. Zhocka makes a statistical analysis of the number of verses in each chapter of Sondheim, but in YOG 205 someone notices that he got his math wrong. Instead of an average of 22.8 verses per chapter, Fr. Zhocka calculated that the average number of verses per chapter in Sondheim is 22.6. How very strange! Here's the problem! Fr. Zhocka lists Sondheim as having 12 verses instead of the correct 22.

Furthermore, Br. Zhamey writes a book titled, "The Complete Commentary on the Book of Hastings," but somehow fails to mention the last eight chapters of Hastings. In addition, Archbishop Zhorzh's homilies on that same book fail to cover the same chapters.

There are just too many chances for missing things for it to work. At least, not seamlessly.

~Tonto
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by n7axw   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:04 pm

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

Wait until the Adams and Eves are gone. The originals are in the Temple. Whenever there is a discrepancy between a copy and the original, rule automatically in favor of the original.

That's not enough. Someday, prior to the great switcharoonie, Fr. Zhai writes to Br. Kai, encouraging him to continue fighting the good fight. In so doing, he quotes the book of Sondheim 5:8--6:5. On the day of TGS, the archangels add ten verses to the end on Sondheim 5. The question that arises is why didn't Fr. Zhai quote Sondheim 5: 13-22? In fact, no sources prior to YOG 175 mention Sondheim 5: 13-22. It's extraordinarily strange because Sondheim 5: 13-22 adds such a major tenet to the belief structure of the CoGA. (If it hadn't, then Chihiro wouldn't have taken the trouble to add it.)

Not only that, but as his Academician Dissertation, Fr. Zhocka makes a statistical analysis of the number of verses in each chapter of Sondheim, but in YOG 205 someone notices that he got his math wrong. Instead of an average of 22.8 verses per chapter, Fr. Zhocka calculated that the average number of verses per chapter in Sondheim is 22.6. How very strange! Here's the problem! Fr. Zhocka lists Sondheim as having 12 verses instead of the correct 22.

Furthermore, Br. Zhamey writes a book titled, "The Complete Commentary on the Book of Hastings," but somehow fails to mention the last eight chapters of Hastings. In addition, Archbishop Zhorzh's homilies on that same book fail to cover the same chapters.

There are just too many chances for missing things for it to work. At least, not seamlessly.

~Tonto


I believe that the test has to do with altering the Testimonies, not the Writ. I would doubt that it would be seamless at first. But over time the versions in the Temple become accepted as authentic. Lots of people would accept the authenticity of the Temple originals as having the imprimatur of the angels.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:18 pm

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

Wait until the Adams and Eves are gone. The originals are in the Temple. Whenever there is a discrepancy between a copy and the original, rule automatically in favor of the original.

That's not enough. Someday, prior to the great switcharoonie, Fr. Zhai writes to Br. Kai, encouraging him to continue fighting the good fight. In so doing, he quotes the book of Sondheim 5:8--6:5. On the day of TGS, the archangels add ten verses to the end on Sondheim 5. The question that arises is why didn't Fr. Zhai quote Sondheim 5: 13-22? In fact, no sources prior to YOG 175 mention Sondheim 5: 13-22. It's extraordinarily strange because Sondheim 5: 13-22 adds such a major tenet to the belief structure of the CoGA. (If it hadn't, then Chihiro wouldn't have taken the trouble to add it.)

Not only that, but as his Academician Dissertation, Fr. Zhocka makes a statistical analysis of the number of verses in each chapter of Sondheim, but in YOG 205 someone notices that he got his math wrong. Instead of an average of 22.8 verses per chapter, Fr. Zhocka calculated that the average number of verses per chapter in Sondheim is 22.6. How very strange! Here's the problem! Fr. Zhocka lists Sondheim as having 12 verses instead of the correct 22.

Furthermore, Br. Zhamey writes a book titled, "The Complete Commentary on the Book of Hastings," but somehow fails to mention the last eight chapters of Hastings. In addition, Archbishop Zhorzh's homilies on that same book fail to cover the same chapters.

There are just too many chances for missing things for it to work. At least, not seamlessly.

~Tonto


The only alterations to the Writ which were made following the destruction of the Alexandria Enclave were very openly made. That is, they represented the inclusion of the official version of the War Against the Fallen and added the Book of Schueler as a necessary expansion of the original Whole Writ in light of Shan-wei's defiance of God and Langhorne and the resultant introduction of evil into the world. Bear in mind that the Writ was still being written and added to right up to the moment of the Alexandria Strike. That is, the authors of the books were living, breathing "Archangels" right there on Safehold who were completely free to expand upon the books already attributed to them. The Writ wasn't closed until after so many of the "Archangels" had been killed.

In addition, there never were any books by Shan-wei or any of the other members of the Alexandria Enclave, given how bitterly opposed to the entire Church of God Awaiting concept they were. Shan-wei was greatly reverenced prior to her fall — and it drove her crazy — but none of the books or instruction on how to "consecrate" (terraformed) forests or land or actually written by her. References to her (and/or to any other member of the Alexandria Enclave's staff) which had already been included in the Writ were allowed to stand . . . but were amended and effectively "footnoted" by post-Fall commentary. Don't forget how important it was to put the full force of Mother Church and the faith of all Safeholdians behind the concept of Shan-wei's Fall. To do that truly effectively, references to what she accomplished before Falling were just as important as anathematizations of her for her subsequent evil deeds.

The Book of Chihiro bears much the same relationship to the primary books of the Holy Writ that the book of Acts bears to the rest of the New Testament, with the proviso that Chihiro was one of the original "Archangels." That is, his book was written specifically to tell the history of The Fall of Shan-Wei and the War Against the Fallen, not to describe the creation of the universe or to give instruction in specific areas like agronomy or psychology. It's almost as if Milton's Paradise Lost had been written by St. Michael the day after Lucifer was cast down and then incorporated into the Old Testament. The Book of Chihiro is, in effect, the primary source for all Safeholdian history dealing with the Creation and/or the "Archangels," and not part of the operator's manual for terraforming the portions of Safehold which had not already been terraformed and settled.

The deletion of Saint Kohdy was a bit more ticklish, but it certainly wasn't impossible. When it was time to excise him from the historical record, it was mostly a case of keeping track of the people who had personally interacted with him and then using the technology available to the last of the "angels" to quietly abstract and alter their journals and to do the same with their surviving correspondence. Yes, they knew they would almost certainly miss at least some letters which might reference Kohdy approvingly and/or attest to his historical existence. However, the Church is also the primary librarian of Safehold. Until relatively recently (as in the last couple of hundred Safeholdian years), in fact, the Church was the sole librarian of Safehold (and don't forget how rare the ability to read and write became before the reemergence of anything remotely like universal literacy), and it is still the repository for just about every historical collection.

The diaries, journals, and letters of the Adams and Eves were regarded as part of the scriptural — not simply the historical — record. As each of them died, their original diaries, journals, and letter collections were "donated" to Mother Church to be collected and compiled as a part of that scriptural heritage of all mankind. It was the religious duty of their heirs to make that donation, which means that very few letters dating from the time of the War Against the Fallen exist outside the Church's collections. After all, where could such critical documents be more safely consolidated than in the protecting hands of Mother Church? Surely the custodian of men's souls is the only possible custodian of the divinely inspired and witnessed record!

In addition, the existence of the legend of Saint Kohdy, the fact that the Church actually embraced the "mythological" tales of Kohdy's doings as a form of accepted fiction, provides a defense in depth against any unedited letter which might conceivably turn up outside one of the Church's collections. If there's a reference to him, then clearly it was a reference to the fictitious Saint Kohdy, as will become manifestly clear when it is properly interpreted in context.

I never meant to imply that the church had done a 100% effective job of eliminating every reference to Kohdy. In fact, I thought it was self-evident that if they'd managed to do that, then there wouldn't have been any "legend of Saint Kohdy" in the first place. What they did manage to do was to eliminate specific, eyewitness testimony to his existence and achievements as one of the seijins defending Mother Church against the Fallen in the hour of her greatest need, and that really wasn't difficult for them, given the technology available to them and the absolute authority of Mother Church at the time.

Hope this helps clarify.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Expert snuggler   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:27 pm

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The diary at the SSK is on miraculously age-proof paper. Any chance that other such books from the same era have survived?
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:49 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:The diary at the SSK is on miraculously age-proof paper. Any chance that other such books from the same era have survived?



And you expect me to answer this because . . . ?


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Altered books(spoilers)
Post by Duckk   » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:54 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Expert snuggler wrote:The diary at the SSK is on miraculously age-proof paper. Any chance that other such books from the same era have survived?



And you expect me to answer this because . . . ?


You're a very nice guy and you wouldn't want to leave your loving fans hanging? :lol:
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