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Silk Town-Thesmar Canal

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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by Keith_w   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:53 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Keith_w wrote:...For example, the Rocky mountains are a watershed from which the water on the eastern side flows to Hudson's Bay, ...


Actually, the American Rocky Mountains drain eastward into the Mississippi and/or the Gulf of Mexico. That's also true for the southern portion of the Canadian Rockies, although I don't recall off-hand how far North that's still the case.


The Bow river, which flows through Banff and Calgary ends up in Hudson's Bay.

The Bow River is a river in the Canadian province of Alberta. It begins in the Rocky Mountains and winds through the Alberta foothills onto the prairies where it meets the Oldman River, the two then forming the South Saskatchewan River. These waters ultimately flow through the Nelson River into Hudson Bay. The Bow River runs through the city of Calgary, taking in the Elbow River at the historic site of Fort Calgary near downtown. The Bow River pathway, developed along the river's banks, is considered a part of Calgary's self-image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_River

The Columbia river starts not far from there and flows to the Pacific.

The Columbia River is the largest river in the Pacific Northwest region of North America.[9] The river rises in the Rocky Mountains of British Columbia, Canada. It flows northwest and then south into the US state of Washington, then turns west to form most of the border between Washington and the state of Oregon before emptying into the Pacific Ocean. The river is 1,243 miles (2,000 km) long, and its largest tributary is the Snake River. Its drainage basin is roughly the size of France and extends into seven U.S. states and a Canadian province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River

Be that as it may, water flows downhill and always finds it's own level. Trying to cross a watershed without additional water pumped from lower levels will certainly be a futile effort.
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by WeberFan   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi SWM,

Except we have Rhobair explaining that his temporary gates are wood so they'll leak more than normal, implying the regular gates are metal or something else and will be replaced when all is ready.

This is interesting since Shan-wei built them, but only expected them to last around 500 years, not knowing what Langhorne was doing, so what did she build them out of?

While non-ferrous metal seems obvious, large aluminum manufacture on Safehold is impossible, or galvanized steel since the archangels didn't want any large industries [self-sufficient villages were their goal], but coating the exterior in lead or bronze [copper and tin etc] is possible, and certainly expensive enough that only the church could afford the whole world's annual maintenance costs.

However I wonder if she didn't use some advanced materials that she expected the colonists to be able to replace when the time came as they would then have had the same tech.

So could some gates have been made out of carbon fiber, concrete or 'ceramicrete' etc, that might be patched as necessary, or used in lieu of the lead or bronze outer water proof protection, with wood and rubber for the fender and gate contact seals?

Granted, the gates blown up in the GCR weren't venerated like they were a thousand years old made by the archangels, so I expect they weren't, but then what is the replacement rate?

If they were expected to last only 500 and have now gone almost a thousand, there is probably a huge massive failure point coming especially if they're not rust proof, and I'd expect the last archangels to have warned the temple to prepare for it years if not decades in advance, but can the CoGA now afford it when they're almost bankrupt?

Perhaps only the EoC will now be able to afford replacing the lock gates when they fail, another reason to accept the end of the jihad and trade with them, otherwise the national economy might collapse. ;)

L



Hi Lyonheart,

I've been wondering about this myself. The locks on the canals that the Archangels built might have been made out of TF materials. But a goodly percentage by this time would have been built by Safeholdens without access to TF materiaals...

Out of what? I could imagine stone and mortar for the walls of the gates with the framing for the gates themselves along with the gates being made out of iron....

That would introduce a lot of corrosion, though. I would imagine that they would be subject to frequent maintainence and replacement...

Don

Hi Don and Lyonheart,

Lock walls are likely concrete: LAMA, August 896, Chapter 2 "The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands", Section 1: "That's what I was afraid of." Maigwair's expression was grim. "And that doesn't even consider the effect weather's going to have! Will we even be able to pour concrete over the winter?" (emphasis mine).
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:29 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
Hi Don and Lyonheart,

Lock walls are likely concrete: LAMA, August 896, Chapter 2 "The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands", Section 1: "That's what I was afraid of." Maigwair's expression was grim. "And that doesn't even consider the effect weather's going to have! Will we even be able to pour concrete over the winter?" (emphasis mine).


Nice catch and thank you...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:28 am

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Hi Isaac Newton,

I expect Shan-wei left blueprints to replace virtually all canal infrastructure with copies they could make, but I doubt she used wood or iron, or even wrought iron initially.

I doubt the pumps etc could be replaced by village black smith's, so some larger manufacturies were required almost from the beginning if the colonists were to start learning by building their own canals.

But I'm curious how many generations of gates etc have been replaced so far while the gunpowder explosion certainly wrecked the lock gates for just that lock.

L


isaac_newton wrote:
n7axw wrote:SNIP

Hi Lyonheart,

I've been wondering about this myself. The locks on the canals that the Archangels built might have been made out of TF materials. But a goodly percentage by this time would have been built by Safeholdens without access to TF materiaals...

Out of what? I could imagine stone and mortar for the walls of the gates with the framing for the gates themselves along with the gates being made out of iron....

That would introduce a lot of corrosion, though. I would imagine that they would be subject to frequent maintainence and replacement...

Don


Wasn't the munitions canalboat explosian in a lock on the Langhorne. If that was Terran tech, then would it have caused much damage at all? Or did you mean originally?
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:48 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Isaac Newton,

I expect Shan-wei left blueprints to replace virtually all canal infrastructure with copies they could make, but I doubt she used wood or iron, or even wrought iron initially.

I doubt the pumps etc could be replaced by village black smith's, so some larger manufacturies were required almost from the beginning if the colonists were to start learning by building their own canals.

But I'm curious how many generations of gates etc have been replaced so far while the gunpowder explosion certainly wrecked the lock gates for just that lock.

L


isaac_newton wrote:SNIP

Wasn't the munitions canalboat explosian in a lock on the Langhorne. If that was Terran tech, then would it have caused much damage at all? Or did you mean originally?


A sudden thought. When Shan-wei was building the original canals - Langhorn et al were off in space.

Was that there was any thought in the terra forming team of the 'Archangels/COGA/Creation' mythos at that point?

I had thought that they were hoping/planning for a reveal after 500 years, so wouldn't they have stuck to Safehold level tech to avoids those difficult questions among the colonists?

I had assumed that in the original plan the colonists would have woken simultaneously with false memories of having lived on Safehold for always, rather than Day of Creation event in all its splendor. So to have bits of tech with no plausible origin would be problematic...
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by Keith_w   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:49 am

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SWM wrote:
Keith_w wrote:I think the operative word in that quote is "Where". Not all canals require them. I recall that is mentioned in at least one of the books that the water supply in the canal is replenished from a nearby river which probably requires pumping. I also notice that it refers to "crossing a watershed", which is a high point of land from either side of which the water flows in different directions. For example, the Rocky mountains are a watershed from which the water on the eastern side flows to Hudson's Bay, and the western side which flows to the Pacific Ocean. You would definitely need pumps to replenish the water supply in that case.

Nobody in this thread said that all locks on Safehold require pumps. This discussion started when someone asked 'why would a lock ever need a pump?' That question has now been answered, by several people. And note, by the way, that this was asked in the context of the Salthar Canal, which goes from sea-level over a neck of land of unknown height back to sea-level. So it does cross a watershed, and that section of the article is quite applicable.


You are right, the question was answered, mostly by me. Why are you so concerned about this discussion? It's not like we have a new snippet to read, enjoy and discuss.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by WeberFan   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:34 am

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LAMA, August 896, Chapter 2 "The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands", Section 1 (the discussion between Duchairn and Maigwair) has a LOT of answers about the canals - at least the ones that were destroyed...

"Well, it helps that we have the plans for every canal on file right here in Zion." - Where the plans came from (whether from Shan Wei or self-developed) isn't answered. But we know at least that they HAVE detailed plans.

"We're also doing a comprehensive analysis of the pumping stations that were destroyed, and I'm having complete duplicate pumps made for each of them. We can barge them forward as far as the canals and the rivers will take us, and we're designing them in components small enough for draft dragons to haul on flatbed wagons from there..." - Suggesting that pumps are required at least in some cases, and also suggesting that some of these pumps are pretty big!

LAMA, September 896, Chapter VI "St. Bahzlyr Canal, Tarikah River, Tarikah Province, Republic of Siddarmark", Section 1 has additional answers about the canals - at least the ones that were destroyed...

"Unlike most of the canals of the Temple Lands, where the walls and floors were poured concrete, or the newer canals further south here in Siddarmark, where kiln-fired brick was often used, the St. Bazlyr's walls were native stone, shaped by hand, squared, and laid up with mortar." - speaks to the materials the canals are made of.

Further on in the same paragraph:

"The splintered remnants of the upper lock's stout nearoak timbers still hung from the gate frame..."
Emphasis mine.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by WeberFan   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:51 am

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And finally, we have LAMA, October 896, Chapter IV: Sarkyn, Tairohn Hills, and Archbishop's Palace, City of St. Vyrdyn, Princedom of Sarkyn (Mahlyk Pottyr' thoughts).

Mahlyk Pottyr works for the Canal Service in Sarkyn as the Lockmaster on the Holy Langhorne Canal.

"He snorted at the thought, then moved a little closer to the edge of the lock chamber's solid, centuries-old stonework..."

"The Holy Langhorne was one of the world's most ancient canals, and the oldest canals had the fewest locks.... Why, the sides of the Ambyltyn Cut, no more than four miles east of Sarkyn, towered over four hundred feel above canal level at the canal's deepest point! And smooth, like polished marble." - Suggesting that the Archangels cut with technology but built with stone for the canals.
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Re: Silk Town-Thesmar Canal
Post by isaac_newton   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:54 am

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WeberFan wrote:And finally, we have LAMA, October 896, Chapter IV: Sarkyn, Tairohn Hills, and Archbishop's Palace, City of St. Vyrdyn, Princedom of Sarkyn (Mahlyk Pottyr' thoughts).

Mahlyk Pottyr works for the Canal Service in Sarkyn as the Lockmaster on the Holy Langhorne Canal.

"He snorted at the thought, then moved a little closer to the edge of the lock chamber's solid, centuries-old stonework..."

"The Holy Langhorne was one of the world's most ancient canals, and the oldest canals had the fewest locks.... Why, the sides of the Ambyltyn Cut, no more than four miles east of Sarkyn, towered over four hundred feel above canal level at the canal's deepest point! And smooth, like polished marble." - Suggesting that the Archangels cut with technology but built with stone for the canals.


V helpfull - thanks :-)

Interesting especially that bit about the pump chambers & replacments and their size!
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Re: Spoiler element included at the end Re: Silk Town-Thesma
Post by SWM   » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:52 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
SWM wrote:Nobody in this thread said that all locks on Safehold require pumps. This discussion started when someone asked 'why would a lock ever need a pump?' That question has now been answered, by several people. And note, by the way, that this was asked in the context of the Salthar Canal, which goes from sea-level over a neck of land of unknown height back to sea-level. So it does cross a watershed, and that section of the article is quite applicable.


You are right, the question was answered, mostly by me. Why are you so concerned about this discussion? It's not like we have a new snippet to read, enjoy and discuss.

Huh?

I don't read snippets or spoilers. I have no idea whether there are new snippets to discuss.

And I am concerned with the discussion because I have been a part of the discussion from the beginning. In fact, you were responding to me back when you asked the question "why would you need pumps?", which started this whole subtopic. So I'm confused why you think I should not be part of the discussion.
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