General Winter

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
Wouldn't they need to drag wagon loads of explosives with them to blow the locks up with?

Hi Keith,

Maybe not wagon loads... I could visualize using packhorses.

Don

Then I fear you would be envisioning too little explosive to do the trick, Don!

And there's also the little problem of just how mobile your dragoons would be and how far behind the enemy's line they could operate both logistically and tactically. Not to mention the question of whether or not you want to be doing any more damage than you have to to canals you may hope to be using yourself shortly after more, ah . . . direct applications of force to the armies currently between you and them.

Not saying that this has any implications whatsoever for what the EoC may actually end up doing, of course.

runsforcelery wrote:[quote="n7axw

Hi Keith,

Maybe not wagon loads... I could visualize using packhorses.

Don

Then I fear you would be envisioning too little explosive to do the trick, Don!

And there's also the little problem of just how mobile your dragoons would be and how far behind the enemy's line they could operate both logistically and tactically. Not to mention the question of whether or not you want to be doing any more damage than you have to to canals you may hope to be using yourself shortly after more, ah . . . direct applications of force to the armies currently between you and them.

Not saying that this has any implications whatsoever for what the EoC may actually end up doing, of course. [/quote]

Of course not


Since we are on the subject of blowing up locks, could someone enlighten me about one aspect of the Great Canal raid that has slightly puzzled me...

At first thought, I assumed that they cheerfully blow up everything, lock gates, pumps and all.

Is that correct or did they leave one gate in place so that the water flow [surge or draining] did not cause problems to the ships.

For example, suppose they had just ascended or descended a stair of locks - blowing the entire set as soon as they passed would be clearly be contra indicated - they would want to get several miles on. But if they just left delayed action charges behind that would have given the locals a slim chance to stop the explosians.

Any thoughts?

isaac_newton wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:

Then I fear you would be envisioning too little explosive to do the trick, Don!

And there's also the little problem of just how mobile your dragoons would be and how far behind the enemy's line they could operate both logistically and tactically. Not to mention the question of whether or not you want to be doing any more damage than you have to to canals you may hope to be using yourself shortly after more, ah . . . direct applications of force to the armies currently between you and them.

Not saying that this has any implications whatsoever for what the EoC may actually end up doing, of course.

Of course not


Since we are on the subject of blowing up locks, could someone enlighten me about one aspect of the Great Canal raid that has slightly puzzled me...

At first thought, I assumed that they cheerfully blow up everything, lock gates, pumps and all.

Is that correct or did they leave one gate in place so that the water flow [surge or draining] did not cause problems to the ships.

For example, suppose they had just ascended or descended a stair of locks - blowing the entire set as soon as they passed would be clearly be contra indicated - they would want to get several miles on. But if they just left delayed action charges behind that would have given the locals a slim chance to stop the explosians.

Any thoughts?

The technique was to leave the last gate between the ironclads and the demolitions intact. They could blow the pumps and water management systems as long as they were outside the gates they controlled but, in theory, someone could have (and should have) blown that last gate behind them, drained the canal, and stranded them. That was, in fact, the riskiest part of the entire operation, but Merlin was right about the prohibitions against damaging the locks holding people in check without specific instructions from the Inquisition --- denied them by the destruction of the semaphore system --- to do anything of the sort. It is, however, one reason Clyntahn was as irate as he was. For all his faults, the man does have a brain which works pretty well when he chooses to engage it, and it was obvious to him that the ironclads could have been stranded by simply completing the demolition of locks which had already been effectively destroyed.

One of the problems with a rigid hierarchy which does not encourage initiative and savagely punishes any failure. People are not going to put their butts on the line by violating established SOP if they know they --- and possibly their families --- may find themselves guests of the Inquisition for their pains (double entendre intended).

Of course, having the author on your side is almost as effective in a case like this as having a vicious SOB running the Inquisition!

runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
The technique was to leave the last gate between the ironclads and the demolitions intact. They could blow the pumps and water management systems as long as they were outside the gates they controlled but, in theory, someone could have (and should have) blown that last gate behind them, drained the canal, and stranded them. That was, in fact, the riskiest part of the entire operation, but Merlin was right about the prohibitions against damaging the locks holding people in check without specific instructions from the Inquisition --- denied them by the destruction of the semaphore system --- to do anything of the sort. It is, however, one reason Clyntahn was as irate as he was. For all his faults, the man does have a brain which works pretty well when he chooses to engage it, and it was obvious to him that the ironclads could have been stranded by simply completing the demolition of locks which had already been effectively destroyed.

..snip..

If you are going downstream you could essentially blow all the lock-gates behind you if the terrain surrounding the canal allowed it, ie. the canal would quite quickly overflow its banks and there wouldn't be that big a surge a mile or two downstreams.

runsforcelery wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:SNIP
Of course not


Since we are on the subject of blowing up locks, could someone enlighten me about one aspect of the Great Canal raid that has slightly puzzled me...

At first thought, I assumed that they cheerfully blow up everything, lock gates, pumps and all.
SNIP

Any thoughts?

The technique was to leave the last gate between the ironclads and the demolitions intact. They could blow the pumps and water management systems as long as they were outside the gates they controlled but, in theory, someone could have (and should have) blown that last gate behind them, drained the canal, and stranded them. That was, in fact, the riskiest part of the entire operation, but Merlin was right about the prohibitions against damaging the locks holding people in check without specific instructions from the Inquisition --- denied them by the destruction of the semaphore system --- to do anything of the sort. It is, however, one reason Clyntahn was as irate as he was. For all his faults, the man does have a brain which works pretty well when he chooses to engage it, and it was obvious to him that the ironclads could have been stranded by simply completing the demolition of locks which had already been effectively destroyed.

One of the problems with a rigid hierarchy which does not encourage initiative and savagely punishes any failure. People are not going to put their butts on the line by violating established SOP if they know they --- and possibly their families --- may find themselves guests of the Inquisition for their pains (double entendre intended).

Of course, having the author on your side is almost as effective in a case like this as having a vicious SOB running the Inquisition!

Thanks for that
clears that one up nicely - only another few thousand questions to go

runsforcelery wrote:

The technique was to leave the last gate between the ironclads and the demolitions intact.

Yeah, I had decided that must be how it was done, but I was very slow working it out. Actually, I had decided that when going up, they left the last gate in place. Then when going down they destroyed all gates. Destroying all gates would explain why Kaitsworth and others were complaining about how little water was in the canals. Also why the canal engineer was complaining about the scour.

~Tonto

isaac_newton wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:[quote="n7axw

Hi Keith,

Maybe not wagon loads... I could visualize using packhorses.

Don

Then I fear you would be envisioning too little explosive to do the trick, Don!

And there's also the little problem of just how mobile your dragoons would be and how far behind the enemy's line they could operate both logistically and tactically. Not to mention the question of whether or not you want to be doing any more damage than you have to to canals you may hope to be using yourself shortly after more, ah . . . direct applications of force to the armies currently between you and them.

Not saying that this has any implications whatsoever for what the EoC may actually end up doing, of course. :lol

Of course not


Since we are on the subject of blowing up locks, could someone enlighten me about one aspect of the Great Canal raid that has slightly puzzled me...

At first thought, I assumed that they cheerfully blow up everything, lock gates, pumps and all.

Is that correct or did they leave one gate in place so that the water flow [surge or draining] did not cause problems to the ships.

For example, suppose they had just ascended or descended a stair of locks - blowing the entire set as soon as they passed would be clearly be contra indicated - they would want to get several miles on. But if they just left delayed action charges behind that would have given the locals a slim chance to stop the explosians.

Any thoughts?

Hey, I'm not trying to guess how many ponies they need as pack horses. I presume somebody smarter than me would figure it out. Ponies do have the advantage of not needing roads...

As for your other point, that one is a real poser. I wondered how that worked out when reading the Great Canal Raid in MTAT. I never did come up with a good answer.

Don

n7axw wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I prefer root beer.

Which do you recommend?

L

A&W

Don

Especially in the frosty glass.

I would think that the would already have instructions to the effect that if the naval battle goes badly, punish the families unless otherwise instructed. No surrender of any kind seems to be very much the Inquisition's way.

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart and Keith,

No doubt but what they are fanatics, but they would expect communication from their superiors and given the way things will be collapsing around him, lines of communication will be a bit chaotic.

If Thirsk is defeated at sea, odds are he will be either killed in battle or spending time as Admiral Sharpfield's honored guest, or given Sharpfield's attitude, perhaps his dishonored guest. That, however, will be survivable. But as for his family, I don't know how that sorts out.

Hey Lyonheart,

Maybe extracting Thirsk's family can be Nimue's first mission. Her appearance could be a quite a shock to their keepers!

That next snippet will probably show up sometime between now and Monday.

Don

PS. Did you ever get your Old Tillman?

Keith_w wrote:I would think that the would already have instructions to the effect that if the naval battle goes badly, punish the families unless otherwise instructed. No surrender of any kind seems to be very much the Inquisition's way.

n7axw wrote:Hi Lyonheart and Keith,

No doubt but what they are fanatics, but they would expect communication from their superiors and given the way things will be collapsing around him, lines of communication will be a bit chaotic.

If Thirsk is defeated at sea, odds are he will be either killed in battle or spending time as Admiral Sharpfield's honored guest, or given Sharpfield's attitude, perhaps his dishonored guest. That, however, will be survivable. But as for his family, I don't know how that sorts out.

Hey Lyonheart,

Maybe extracting Thirsk's family can be Nimue's first mission. Her appearance could be a quite a shock to their keepers!

That next snippet will probably show up sometime between now and Monday.

Don

PS. Did you ever get your Old Tillman?

Well having your ship shot out from under you and getting fished out of the drink is not really the same thing as surrender. My point is we really don't know how this will go. Maybe our beloved author has arranged a little drama in the family rescue department. That's another possibility.

We will have to wait and see.

Don