HFQ Official Snippet #7

CSB wrote:

n7axw wrote:Thirsk did not make either of those decisions. They were taken away from him. In order to actually reverse the results, he would have needed the means to resist which he did not have.

As for looking for a way out, maybe he is. His story is not yet fully told.

Don

If I remember correctly, the Charisian POWs were held under Thirsk's authority for months before the Inquisition demanded that they be turned over in preparation for the trip to Zion. I'm not saying he had full control over the situation--he didn't--but he had some, and failed to accomplish *anything morally useful whatsoever* with the single exception of collecting the letters at the very end. Quoting Pasquale's requirements from the Writ would have been *something.*

Thirsk may well be looking for a way out. He should have realized that necessity *long* before now and did not, and in the meantime, he is still aggressively pushing the technological development of Team Evil, to the point of threatening his own/his family's safety.

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shayvaan, the parallel with Thomas Theisman is interesting and reasonably convincing. I'm not sure why I have somewhat less sympathy for Thirsk as compared to Theisman, though I'd be willing to bet that if a later book has Thirsk standing over Rayno's body with a bloodied sword (after Clyntahn's earlier death), I'd probably like him more.

By and large, I'm just watching this discussion. However, I should point out that one thing which has infuriated Thirsk --- and one reason the bishop assigned as his intendant has put the brakes on his personal rage several times (as by pointing out the passage from the Book of Bedard vis-à-vis parents' responsibility to protect their children from harm) --- is that Thirsk did not have the authority to properly care for Gwyllym Manthyr's men before they were surrendered to the Inquisition. Go back and look. He was overruled by the Bishop Executor who specifically ordered that the POWs be denied proper food and medical attention because they were heretics. The POWs weren't truly in Thrsk's custody; he'd been reduced to an agent of the Inquisition, specifically prevented by the orders of his King, his naval superiors, and the Church of the power to provide those things to the prisoners for whom he was officially gaoler. As I say, it was one of the things which infuriated him and it helped provoke much of his internal moral crisis, but the truth was that all he could have accomplished by attempting to defy the order would have been his own condemnation right alongside the Charisians.

runsforcelery wrote:
By and large, I'm just watching this discussion. However, I should point out that one thing which has infuriated Thirsk --- and one reason the bishop assigned as his intendant has put the brakes on his personal rage several times (as by pointing out the passage from the Book of Bedard vis-à-vis parents' responsibility to protect their children from harm) --- is that Thirsk did not have the authority to properly care for Gwyllym Manthyr's men before they were surrendered to the Inquisition. Go back and look. He was overruled by the Bishop Executor who specifically ordered that the POWs be denied proper food and medical attention because they were heretics. The POWs weren't truly in Thrsk's custody; he'd been reduced to an agent of the Inquisition, specifically prevented by the orders of his King, his naval superiors, and the Church of the power to provide those things to the prisoners for whom he was officially gaoler. As I say, it was one of the things which infuriated him and it helped provoke much of his internal moral crisis, but the truth was that all he could have accomplished by attempting to defy the order would have been his own condemnation right alongside the Charisians.

Thank you Mr. Weber,

Thirsk is a tormented soul in a difficult position and about to be put to even greater tests. His Character has shown through and I hope he has some very decisive role to play in the transition of Dohlar.

The snippets are great but . . . "Sir, may I have some more?"

EdThomas wrote:Bit of a rant follows
Not sure where this Thirsk-bashing is coming from. This is from Snippet 6. You know, theone before this one!!!
"Gorath Bay’s temperature seldom fell below freezing, yet it could be bitterly cold in winter, especially for anyone out on its waters. The bay’s cold snaps, with their raw, biting chill, might last for five-days, despite its southern location. That was what had caused so much sickness among Gwyllym Manthyr’s half-starved, half-naked crews when they were confined in the prison hulks.

Oh, yes, Thirsk thought. The bay can be cruel, especially when human spite sees a chance to make it worse.

His jaw tightened as he remembered that winter, remembered his shame and the way the Inquisition had countermanded his orders to provide his prisoners — his prisoners — with food and healers. That wind-polished sheet of pitiless winter water danced before his eyes again, and he felt the helplessness he’d felt then. Oh, how he’d hated Gorath Bay throughout that cold, bitter winter."

Am I the only one here who remembers THirsk's anger at what the Inquisition was ordering him to do? Were it not for his religious guy (Intendant?) Thirsk would have ended up in the Inquisition's loving clutches. He knows the Inquisition is watching his children and their families to keep him in line. He has to make sure his young whiz kid doesn't go too far, or too fast and run afoul of the Proscriptions, as well.

THirsk is one of the most honorable characters in the series and I'm taking personal offense at folks impugning him for actions that he was ordered to do when opposing those orders would have accomplished nothing but his own demise and probably even the deaths by torture of his children and their families.

Are we reading the same books?

Again, I'll reiterate. Thirsk reminds me of Warner Casket, and I really respected him too.

The situation sucks, he knows his masters are evil, and he is trying to navigate this dilemma without losing his soul.

He is really beating himself up because the prisoners were badly treated and in spite of his best efforts, there wasn't a thing he could do to protect them.

Almost reminds me of survivers guilt.

McGuiness wrote:To be more precise, the Inquisition has taken Thirsk's family into "protective custody." They are literally hostages to ensure his good behavior.

Now that we know how ancient and widespread Aivah's organization is, the possibility of it having cells in Dohlar seems more likely. Toss in the help of a disguised seijin or two, and the dozens of inquisitors "protecting" Thirsk's family could come to sudden and untimely ends, after which his family is ghosted away to freedom. (Preferably while he has the fleet out chasing the ICN.) When the schooner from the Inquisition arrives at his flagship to demand his arrest, they're going to receive a very cold (or would that be a very hot?) reception from his officers and crew.

At that point, knowing that his fleet is thoroughly outclassed and that the only possible result of taking the fight to the enemy would be its complete destruction, he might get away with ordering all his ships to strike their colors. The Charisians aren't going to torture or massacre them after all!

And OH how I would like to see Clyntahn's tantrum when that news reaches Zion!

If Thirsk's family would be spirited away the inquisition would probably pick him as soon as possible since he isn't considered reliable and he would be a suspect in their disappearance.

As I posted earlier, IMHO the only way for Thirsk to keep his post is if his family "dies", ie. they get rescued in such a way they are believed to be dead, any other type of rescue will only incur the wrath of the inquisition on Thirsk.

Eric Flint did that stunt in the Belisarius series.

An Indian (Asian) general's family was rescued but it appeared that bandits killed them (fire destroyed all remains).

In Eric's situation, the general had a clue (a small knife not found) that his family was alive and safe.

Joat42 wrote:

McGuiness wrote:To be more precise, the Inquisition has taken Thirsk's family into "protective custody." They are literally hostages to ensure his good behavior.

Now that we know how ancient and widespread Aivah's organization is, the possibility of it having cells in Dohlar seems more likely. Toss in the help of a disguised seijin or two, and the dozens of inquisitors "protecting" Thirsk's family could come to sudden and untimely ends, after which his family is ghosted away to freedom. (Preferably while he has the fleet out chasing the ICN.) When the schooner from the Inquisition arrives at his flagship to demand his arrest, they're going to receive a very cold (or would that be a very hot?) reception from his officers and crew.

At that point, knowing that his fleet is thoroughly outclassed and that the only possible result of taking the fight to the enemy would be its complete destruction, he might get away with ordering all his ships to strike their colors. The Charisians aren't going to torture or massacre them after all!

And OH how I would like to see Clyntahn's tantrum when that news reaches Zion!

If Thirsk's family would be spirited away the inquisition would probably pick him as soon as possible since he isn't considered reliable and he would be a suspect in their disappearance.

As I posted earlier, IMHO the only way for Thirsk to keep his post is if his family "dies", ie. they get rescued in such a way they are believed to be dead, any other type of rescue will only incur the wrath of the inquisition on Thirsk.

dwileye13 wrote:The GI will be so incensed at the impending surrender of Dohlar's Navy and of the surrender of the balance of the Dohlaran Army he will probably demand a portion of the Harchong Army go clear out and smite Dohlar.

It would be ironic to have Hanth and Eastshare defending Dohlar against the force of the Inquisition!

You know, that SUCH a twist that I can actually see RFC doing that! After all, a fleet comprised of the ICN and the NoG sailing into Temple Bay and unloading troops from Charis, Chisholm, Corisande, Tarot, Zebediah, and Dohlar would make it much more difficult for the rest of Safehold to swallow the CoGA's screams that "The Heretics Attacked the Temple!" How can the "Navy of God" be heretical?

This would amount to the two greatest military nations of Safehold that don't belong to the temple (so the Temple Lands don't count, and Harchong isn't much different) saying "Enough is enough, and God never intended the Inquisition to engage in wholesale slaughter like this!"

They have only one religion, but until now the Punishment of Schueler was a mostly theoretical (albeit horrifying) punishment that was almost NEVER applied. Now Siddarmark has seen it applied to thousands of ordinary people, the soldiers of the CoGA's armies have seen enemy soldiers tortured to death while the "heretics" would allow them honorable surrender and would treat them according to the laws of war.

This has to be eating at the consciences of countless thousands of soldiers, most who were just normal people a few years ago. How can they witness a single barbaric implementation of the full Punishment, compare it to the compassion of the "heretics" and their renouncement of the Punishment, and not wonder if they're fighting for the truly moral side, even though the Writ claims that the Punishment will save the soul while destroying the body if the heretic recants before death?

Charis' death sentence on all inquisitors may spread quite a bit more widely among the common soldiers of the CoGA who can't stomach seeing people put to the Punishment any longer, or the rabid butchers the inquisitors have become. Accidents DO happen in battle, and who's to say just how the inquisitor assigned to the troops met his end? We have textev of that already when the crew of the ship the church had hired killed the entire squad of Temple guardsmen assigned to protect the cargo of gold they were carrying so the Charisian schooner swooping down on them wouldn't end up killing them all.

Common sense can break out anywhere, and soon thousands and thousands of CoGA soldiers are going to be sick to death of the carnage the Inquisition is wreaking on both the civilian populace and enemy prisoners alike. The result may be rather entertaining when Clyntahn learns of it!

If the story goes the way I think it's going to go, the inquisition won't be a factor much longer because Dohlar will be cut off from the Temple and defeated which would mean that the inquisitors either take off for greener pastures or find themselves at Charis' mercy.

An angle of this I haven't seen dicussed yet is what happens if Thirsk finds himself in EOC custody. We know from textev in LAMA that Sharpfield holds Thirsk responsible for what happened to Manthyr and his men. If Sharpfield ends up being the one to whom Thirsk surrenders, how does that play out?

Another thing to consider, is that we learned that Ahlvarez left Dohlar at the beginning of the campaign with 95,000 men under his command. So assume that 30,000 men get home and that 90,000 remain at home not under Ahlvarez's command, does Eastshare face at least one more battle before the coast is clear to march on Gorath? Or is Gorath taken from the sea with KH VI's knocking out the defenses to force the surrender of the city?

Don

n7axw wrote:About the only thing that had changed by 1648 from 1618 was that Bohemia remained Catholic after the war was over, being the first victim of the Hapsburgs in 1618. The whole thing was a horrible waste that reduced Germany from a population of 15 million to about 5 million.

Don

The same thing can be said about all real life holy wars.

n7axw wrote:If the story goes the way I think it's going to go, the inquisition won't be a factor much longer because Dohlar will be cut off from the Temple and defeated which would mean that the inquisitors either take off for greener pastures or find themselves at Charis' mercy.
...snip...

Don't you mean "inquisitors put under greener pastures"...

runsforcelery wrote:By and large, I'm just watching this discussion. However, I should point out that one thing which has infuriated Thirsk --- and one reason the bishop assigned as his intendant has put the brakes on his personal rage several times (as by pointing out the passage from the Book of Bedard vis-à-vis parents' responsibility to protect their children from harm) --- is that Thirsk did not have the authority to properly care for Gwyllym Manthyr's men before they were surrendered to the Inquisition. Go back and look. He was overruled by the Bishop Executor who specifically ordered that the POWs be denied proper food and medical attention because they were heretics. The POWs weren't truly in Thrsk's custody; he'd been reduced to an agent of the Inquisition, specifically prevented by the orders of his King, his naval superiors, and the Church of the power to provide those things to the prisoners for whom he was officially gaoler. As I say, it was one of the things which infuriated him and it helped provoke much of his internal moral crisis, but the truth was that all he could have accomplished by attempting to defy the order would have been his own condemnation right alongside the Charisians.

Yeah, that was in the text and I did not remember it correctly, though it still does not change my opinion of Thirsk as a *character* all that much. As a *man*, sure, he's in a deeply tragic situation and is trying to do the best he can with what he has, and that's admirable.

As a reader, I find Thirsk-the-character very frustrating, because we can see inside his head and know that he wants to do "the right thing," but almost every single "success" he has had is in service to the Big Bad, and he knows it.

The fact that he's stuck in an absolutely monolithic moral system with no ability to critique the premises of the system adds to the tragedy, but that's about it. Similarly, the fact that his family is in "protective custody," and that he's always being watched by his local political enemies and the Inquisition. Those are all constraints on his freedom of action.

So we've got a decent man, who wants to do the right thing, but can't and is stuck. Thirsk has been in this situation for nearly the entire series so far, and the only real development has been an increase in how badly he wants to do the right thing and a corresponding increase in how thoroughly he's stuck. It's like Thirsk is developing a better and better sail plan, but the headwinds just get stronger and stronger to the point that he's *still* making zero actual progress.

Even worse, Thirsk actually does have some successes here and there...but they are all in service to Dohlar and the Inquisition (building/training fleets, Dohlaran tech development, the only Team Evil victories at sea, etc.). Worse yet, we're told that Thirsk's efforts to support the Inquisition has put him and his family in further danger...and he's still pushing tech development for the CoGA with all the energy he can muster.

His failures to do good net him zero positive karma. His successes at doing evil push him considerably negative.