The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority

Michae wrote:Talking of the IJN I'm wondering there's there's a possibility of some form of aircraft carrier (in this case I assume it would be a base for dirigibles)entering the Charis navy. I mean it would be a shock to get suddenly bombarded by airborne 2,000 pound bombs, if you aren't expecting it. Plus the advantages of rapid deployment of troops and re-supply via air as they demonstrated by re-supplying the Chynduk Valley with the newest model of rifle,ample ammunition and mortars,plus instructors to teach them how to use the things.

Airship tender ships are possible. Good example is Spanish "Dedalo", which actually have an enclosed hangar (rebuild from forward cargo bay) for small patrol airship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_s ... %C3%A9dalo

Irship came in through the retractable clamshell-type roof.

Hi SilverbladeTE,

Ever hear of LSD's, LST's, LSM's or heavy lift ships?

Given their vast wealth, so they can build forward naval and industrial bases that can build and or service all the short range escorts and shallow craft you think will be exclusively their enemies all the way across the Great Western Ocean, Samson's Land, the Gulf of Dohlar, the Duchy of Fallos, Trellheim after they eliminate the pirates (if they haven't already), as well as Greentree and Westbreak Islands so they could have even shorter ranged shallower ships than what's been proposed for their enemies.

That's not too mention some other facts you and Dilandu seem to be overlooking, such as the inner circle pretty much sees everything now, so strategic surprise is extremely unlikely.

Being a good storyteller, RFC is going to have the ICN lose occasionally, as he has already, but the focus will be what's happening on the continents, and the changes in Safehold's vast peasant populations as they demand the rights and technology they know others have.

NTM Charis is on good terms with Zion, the new emerging North Harchong, and especially Dohlar, while on the other hand, their nascent enemies still don't have a clue as to just how far behind they truly are, in terms of the scientific method in general and the details of the industrial processes involved, let alone the very effective encouragement the inner circle can provide to those already on the right track (although there's also the problem of suggesting the right ratio of bad ideas).

To truly become competitive they need to modernize their societies, which is the last thing these stupid leaders want to do despite all the evidence in front of them that they refuse to see, that the basis for their continued support is narrowing all the time.

I don't believe RFC intends to go in your suggested directions, though I've learned not to predict our favorite story teller's plots.

Although I can predict one of the drivers of the next conflict will be the inner circle's apparent greater concern for their enemies' populations, who are largely innocent victims in the eyes of the inner circle [IC], who are far more unified in their purposes than their enemies ever could be.

While mines are now obvious, gunpowder is a pretty poor explosive, mines do leak or wear out their cables etc. and their enemies steel quality remains too poor and too expensive for the vast numbers needed even separately, so Merlin may have plenty of reasonable historic excuses as to how Desnair, Siddarmark's or South Harchong's mines fail when needed.

Furthermore, I can't see ocean oriented Charisians and especially some people like Cayleb and Merlin or the various IC naval officers to ignore mine warfare especially counter mine techniques, even if they have to establish a very isolated lonely base some place to do the R&D (Armageddon Reef? The Barren Lands?).

I'm curious how these dumb enemy leaders, who've demonstrated they're not too bright to start with, are going to come up with poison gas or some other brilliant equalizer in the first place, let alone a delivery method that outranges Charis's.

Just because RFC suggested the ICN could build an all battleship fleet, doesn't mean he intends to (given his penchant for practical jokes and tricks on his faithful readers, I won't be surprised if he's holding out on us-again), while the testing of various BB components like engines, cooling and heating systems, guns etc., requires testing aboard smaller ships etc, that would be very useful for local security in the home islands of the empire, freeing up the BB's etc for foreign service.

While I'm curious how the next conflict will start, I can't help thinking if the republic had been subjected to the same kind of 'billboard truth' from Merlin/OWL's network of spies as Zion, along with specific detailed culling, its slide into fascism wouldn't have happened so easily.

Definitely looking forward to the next book!

L


[quote="SilverbladeTE"]Dilandu
good points!


and some of them I think make the idea of South Harchong and others using naval mines as a tactical and strategic tools, even more likely/effective

the Inner Circle's cover would become thread bare if they tried warning Charisian captains where mines were that kept being laid especially by stealth/good planning, before it was likely for even Seijins to be able to give an alert....[/quote]

Lyonheart,
Without drastic change, an "archangel" popping up to help Charis' enemies or something else, the next books are going to be CRAP to put it bluntly.

Dilandu is right to point out how much help Merlin gives unbalances things a to the point now, of utter irrelevance to the IC plans.
At the moment there is absolutely no "tension" except the inevitable atrocities and loss of innocent civilians!
So, to be blunt that's part of why TFT in ways, sucked...good on going character and diplomacy tech, but...completely feeble enemies vs Charis

Yes the enemies WOULD suck from all we know of them (which does make sense, see historical leaders and corruption like the end of the Russian Empire, Britain's idiotic policies and attitudes eventually making the loss at Singapore inevitable etc. Note, timescale is important in understanding how bad leadership eventually creates terrible problems for some poor suckers decades ahead)

but without a serious adversary or problems...what's the damn point? :/
Spanking a baby with an axe is what it would be at the moment if they went to war, sigh.

A proxy war is certainly likely, for next book, Emperor's minions vs North Harchong etc but you still need some kind of balance for tension.
Balance seems...bit off even there.
Howysmn's leaving some manuals and tech in South Harchong and letting the crooks steal data to sell to Mahry's did balance things a fair bit


I noted elsewhere the numerous very suspicious deaths, especially Seamount's where Owl had checked the breech of the weapon yet it mysteriously burst....
So I'm hoping there is a snake the grass, maybe Sandira has turned on the IC and some of the Sisters of Saint Khody are now enemies?
Maybe a cloned Chihiro...or something to aid and rebalance Charis' enemies?


Yes I do know about landing ship tanks as I've mentioned them
And yes gunpowder has severe drawbacks as I have mentioned myself, also as noted by Earl Thirsk in ATSOT, and I've suggested for balance of story and tech sharing etc dynamite production knowledge should be sold by Charis as an absolute must.
Yeah not an explosive for artillery or cold waters but nitration tech should percolate and evolve as an idea from that.

Dynamite is absolutely vital for everyone for no other reason than the colossal amounts needed for road rail mining for a technological advancement on a planetary scale which will be a guaranteed failure without enormous capacity to produce high explosives
Otherwise they won't be able to produce and move enough raw materials to sustain industrialisation beyond a certain limit.
It's a huge complex timed effort and without that critical capacity it will collapse soon from that lack throttling it all.
See production of nitrate explosives, nitrocellulose then nitroglycerine then dynamite, gelignite adoption use and production rates in our history
It's tightly woven into industrialization and cannot be overlooked without causing an eventual choke and collapse pretty soon for everyone

Charis alone cannot manufacture the quantities of explosive the huge uptick in industrialization world wide absolutely needs.
It's impossible and even attempting would be extremely dangerous in many ways: environmental, stopping innovation, unavoidable catastrophes etc


Yes it's RFC world to do with as he pleases, though hey, no "giant space hamsters" (much as I luv 'em ) and he obviously cares a great deal for it so it's been a brilliant ride up to now
But "Through Fiery Trials" did show up these issues hence I'm putting my oar in.

Siddarmark, well, you can't monitor everything unknown enemies aren't likely to encounter a parasite bug, and SNARCS aren't too good at getting "social issues"
Human Nature is SNARC proof

phillies wrote:
Yamato almost destroyed our invasion of the Philippines, but the Japanese captain fortunately had morale failure. The IJN was extremely fond of complicated multipart plans, and that was one time the complicated plan almost worked.

Battle off Samar?
Guessing that's where I read of one of the two giants being napalmed since the small US carriers were armed for landing support, hm?

Yamato still SUCKED
Several aircraft carriers or cruisers would have been far far more useful of that colossal cost effort and metal
But hey, Japan's culture was even more insane and grandiose than the flipping Nazis
Unless you consider the huge vessels' worth as a torpedo and dive bomber "magnet" for every US aircraft in sight and thus sparing their comrades some hits :p

Military needs efficiency, in cost, reliability, and use.
A lesson completely failed to accept in recent years as corporates control the politicians and thus the procurements...sigh

SilverbladeTE wrote:Lyonheart,
Without drastic change, an "archangel" popping up to help Charis' enemies or something else, the next books are going to be CRAP to put it bluntly.

I couldn't formulate it better.

SilverbladeTE wrote:Yamato still SUCKED
Several aircraft carriers or cruisers would have been far far more useful of that colossal cost effort and metal
But hey, Japan's culture was even more insane and grandiose than the flipping Nazis
Unless you consider the huge vessels' worth as a torpedo and dive bomber "magnet" for every US aircraft in sight and thus sparing their comrades some hits :p

Well, it was build to be part of doctrine, that favored defensive battle on prepared position against numerically superior navy... so, in this view, it make perfect sense to build her. Additional carriers would not help Japan much in the mainly defensive action, that Kantai Kessen assumed; carriers have no standing power, they could not stand their ground. If they could not maintain the distance (and when you are protecting some point, you would be forced to stop & fight at some moment), they could not be used efficiently. Not to mention that Japan already planned to have more carriers than USN...

The "Yamato" problems was, that she was forced to fight the war for which she was not designed. Yamamoto shifted the whole strategy toward the advance, trying to secure the initiative. He correctly assumed that it's the only Japanese chance to get something at least similar to victory, but fleet he used was NOT designed for that. The inability to use the available resources correctly was in great part because those resources weren't optimized for that kind of use.

Speaking about the "Yamato" herself... well, she was generally comparable in combat power with "South Dakota"-class battleships. Stronger than "North Carolina", but weaker than "Iowa". The "Yamato" major problems were less advanced fire control (the IJN was the only one of Axis navies, that have no blind-fire capability even in 1944-1945), inefficient AA armament, deficient torpedo protection (strong in theory, but have numerous weaknesses), and large, unarmored ends.

Dilandu wrote:
Well, it was build to be part of doctrine, that favored defensive battle on prepared position against numerically superior navy... so, in this view, it make perfect sense to build her. Additional carriers would not help Japan much in the mainly defensive action, that Kantai Kessen assumed; carriers have no standing power, they could not stand their ground. If they could not maintain the distance (and when you are protecting some point, you would be forced to stop & fight at some moment), they could not be used efficiently. Not to mention that Japan already planned to have more carriers than USN...

The "Yamato" problems was, that she was forced to fight the war for which she was not designed. Yamamoto shifted the whole strategy toward the advance, trying to secure the initiative. He correctly assumed that it's the only Japanese chance to get something at least similar to victory, but fleet he used was NOT designed for that. The inability to use the available resources correctly was in great part because those resources weren't optimized for that kind of use.

Speaking about the "Yamato" herself... well, she was generally comparable in combat power with "South Dakota"-class battleships. Stronger than "North Carolina", but weaker than "Iowa". The "Yamato" major problems were less advanced fire control (the IJN was the only one of Axis navies, that have no blind-fire capability even in 1944-1945), inefficient AA armament, deficient torpedo protection (strong in theory, but have numerous weaknesses), and large, unarmored ends.

That's the problem with building your military on assuming what the enemy will do and all conditions at the time of conflict
Like...the Maginot Line.
Or thinking all the air force should be about was mass murdering civilians to force a political crisis and industrial reduction even when all the evidence proved that was bullcrap (British screw up)

I'm not well versed in naval stuff to be sure but I think the Japanese making their Long Lance torpedoes as their key "ship killer" was also such a narrow minded mistake.
British flashless propellant, radar, better gunnery was a more reliable system.
Long Lance was absolutely devastating...when they could be used to effect, but meant weaker gunnery by less resources spent, doctrine etc and were also a guaranteed OWN "ship killer" if they got hit.
Guns were reliable, torpedoes much less so but were very valuable at times...just not that much since no one had guided torpedoes until very end of the war.
Hence part of my note that heavy strafing from aircraft was so dangerous to their destroyers.

Apart from some vital defensive areas you control all the time, like a pass or straight, or an island country thus needing a large navy, the military needs to be balanced and multi-role as you never know what the heck you're gonna get into when actual conflicts occur, which might be decades away from design and procurement.
So if you build a narrow designed force, not just a specific ship, but your entire strategy...that's gonna bite as Murphy's Law is indeed, king!

That doesn't mean the F-35 lol, that's proof of going way too far down the rabbit hole

SilverbladeTE wrote:Like...the Maginot Line.

Which actually worked perfectly. The enemy done exactly what he was supposed to do - tried to circumvent the Line on the North (which was what the Line main purpose: to funnel German advance toward Belgium, where it could be met with all forces of French field army). You could not blame the Line for the failure of French army to stop the enemy.

SilverbladeTE wrote:Guns were reliable, torpedoes much less so but were very valuable at times...just not that much since no one had guided torpedoes until very end of the war.

Well, Italians actually have since 1942 at least...

Dilandu wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:Like...the Maginot Line.

Which actually worked perfectly. The enemy done exactly what he was supposed to do - tried to circumvent the Line on the North (which was what the Line main purpose: to funnel German advance toward Belgium, where it could be met with all forces of French field army). You could not blame the Line for the failure of French army to stop the enemy.

You forget, it also relied on the Belgians actually slowing the Germans down longer than it did

And French senior officers had nervous break down effectively
And their communications sucked HUGE

Bad performance :p

Dilandu wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:Like...the Maginot Line.

Which actually worked perfectly. The enemy done exactly what he was supposed to do - tried to circumvent the Line on the North (which was what the Line main purpose: to funnel German advance toward Belgium, where it could be met with all forces of French field army). You could not blame the Line for the failure of French army to stop the enemy.

And the Ardennes Forest which was supposed to be impassable (the addition is always forgotten - if properly defended). Then is in fact some evidence that it is impassable if properly defended - there was a British Brigade that held up 2 German division for several days, until they were ordered to retreat as a part of the general collapse. The French had not bothered to defend the forest, as everyone knew it was impassable.