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Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2

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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by lyonheart   » Mon May 05, 2014 7:34 am

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Hi Laz,

Thanks for the reminder regarding the Mahrosa canal.

But I still think the Salthar canal is far more probable.

According to the online MTaT map, its about 650 miles long to the river I suppose might be the Hankey with roughly another 550 miles to the Gulf of Dohlar, for around 1200 miles; much shorter than circumnavigating Howard but almost 3 times as long as the Salthar-Silk Town canal (~470 miles).

Besides the distance we have no clue how many locks are on it compared to just the two on the Salthar.

Furthermore its unlikely that it would have a boom since the odds of Desnar being able to drain the canal if an ironclad did steam into it are rather high.

Then there's the problem of protecting and maintaining it in the face of local opposition, let alone trying to defend even a river canal line ~1200 miles long; whereas Silkiah is far more friendly to both the republic and Charis, NTM the North Watch mountains have only 4-5 passes besides the narrow coasts for a far narrower defensive perimeter.

We still have the last 50,000+ ICA troops (2 divisions, a mounted brigade, an artillery regiment, scout snipers, engineers, etc) that left Chisholm back in September are overdue to be heard from since they should have arrived from late-November on, even if they went directly to Sekyr Island, Eralth, or Seine Island etc; possibly finally taking Fort Darymahn.

It is curious that Earl High Mount's voyage took only a little longer, ~85 days, [August 6 of 13 chapters to October 19 of 23]; while Symkyn's was ~74, from mi-June to early September, and was "slightly ahead of schedule" in mid August, despite ostensibly traveling far less than half the distance; ~4450 miles without any reduction for latitude, versus 9830.

Granted the wind and wave are not to be relied upon, but Symkyn certainly should have arrived sooner than ~74 days when most voyages are at least 2-3 times faster on Safehold.

While getting to Thesmar shouldn't take more than an extra 5day or two than SC, they and their horses should have had a month or more to recover from the voyage before starting operations soon, hopefully before the Go4 know they're there.

L


laz wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi Randomiser,

Kudos for your typical excellent analysis. :D

I concur its probably a boom, and given Barns' last known operations area was the Thesmar Gulf of Mathyas to prevent anyone advancing further up the seawater section of the eastern Salthar canal.

A boom is a tactic to be expected if the CoGA can no longer use the canal, a result of the ICN blockade.

It's possible this could be in the gulf of Dohlar, or up some river in Siddarmark, but Silkiah makes the most sense to me.

Destroying a coastal battery seems unlikely given the likely cannon being only 25 pounders, easily defeated or deflected by the ironclad's armor.


Admiral Shain talking about ops in the gulf

“Eventually,” the admiral said instead, looking around the table once more, “we’ll move the blockade inside Mahrosa Bay itself. With any luck, we’ll be able to shut down the east end of the Mahrosa Canal completely. I’d like to land raiding parties to blow up the locks, but Mahrosa’s a major town with a garrison to match, so I’ll settle for putting them out of action with Captain Abernethy’s angle-guns.”

Excerpt From: David Weber. “Like a Mighty Army.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/MTdhP.l

Thats my opinion and i am sticking to it. altho i expect the plan changes
from simple destruction to something more interesting. what bothers me
is why bother with a raiding party if the angle guns can do the same job.


laz

laz
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by Borky   » Wed May 07, 2014 1:23 am

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Could it be a harbor chain?
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by lyonheart   » Wed May 07, 2014 5:46 am

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Hi Borky,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite CG beverage on the forum.

A harbor chain is quite possible, but the Salthar-Silk Town canal is far more important, since it will reduce supply and communications with Admiral Sharpfield's fleet to ~50 days or roughly half.

L


Borky wrote:Could it be a harbor chain?
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by laz   » Sun May 11, 2014 6:37 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Laz,

Thanks for the reminder regarding the Mahrosa canal.

But I still think the Salthar canal is far more probable.



Sathar canal is partially out of play already.
November year of god 896
Ahlverez thinking to himself about the supply situation:

“Worse, even the portion of their supply line being managed by the Church was in disarray. The heretics had total control of the Gulf of Jahras, and the miserable excuse of a “high road” around its western shore had been cut in at least six places. All shipments from Desnair now had to cross the southern lobe of the Gulf of Dohlar, and to make bad worse, two of those damnable armored ships had arrived in Silkiah Bay. They’d closed the eastern end of the Salthar Canal, requiring every ton of supplies to travel almost sixty miles overland between the Salthar and the Silk Town-Thesmar Canal, which required still more draft animals and wagons.”

Excerpt From: David Weber. “Like a Mighty Army.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/MTdhP.l

I think both of us are barking up the wrong tree. Also you should wait on your theories UNTIL the book is further along so RFC can't erase your steam tugs.

and yes i am re-reading at a slower pace finding those little nuggets dropped on the ground.

after looking at the map what about the Silk Town-Thesmar Canal? Silkiah is no longer neutral...
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by Randomiser   » Mon May 12, 2014 4:51 am

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Reluctant as I am to feed Lyonheart's err... fascination with the Salthar Canal, I have to admit that, enlarged to take real ships, it would be a huge strategic and commercial advantage to Charis, in the same way as the Suez and Panama canals are in RL. If there is any bit of the mainland the EoC wants to control after the war that's it. (Plans for Zion excepted, of course) However I do think that's for after the war. It would be too difficult to take and keep it intact from the current position of force deployments, and the expansion for seagoing vessels is a multi-year, mountain of silver project.
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by lyonheart   » Mon May 12, 2014 8:19 am

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Hi Laz,

The Salthar-Silk Town canal is the most strategic objective for the ICN at the moment, ie cutting Sharpfield's communications and supply line from over a hundred days to less than 50 from Tellesburg.

I can't think of a higher priority for the ICN east of Haven and Howard.

From both the online map and the textev, the west end of the Salthar canal is blockaded by the ICN, since the barges go up the coast to Silk Town to get to the Silk Town -- Thesmar canal, which makes a log boom across it to deny entry to an ironclad makes sense of the snippet.

That coastal gap is why the overland alternate route is 'almost 60 miles long'.

Given the 50,000+ ICA that left at the end of September from Port Royal are still unaccounted for, taking the canal makes the most sense, even if they have to do some of it from the Gulf of Jahras, to seize the locks quickly.

Regarding "my" steam tugs [thanks for the compliment, BTW], I think RFC has first call on anything in his universe, and given how smart we both know he is, I'm not worried about it. ;)

L


laz wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi Laz,

Thanks for the reminder regarding the Mahrosa canal.

But I still think the Salthar canal is far more probable.



Sathar canal is partially out of play already.
November year of god 896
Ahlverez thinking to himself about the supply situation:

“Worse, even the portion of their supply line being managed by the Church was in disarray. The heretics had total control of the Gulf of Jahras, and the miserable excuse of a “high road” around its western shore had been cut in at least six places. All shipments from Desnair now had to cross the southern lobe of the Gulf of Dohlar, and to make bad worse, two of those damnable armored ships had arrived in Silkiah Bay. They’d closed the eastern end of the Salthar Canal, requiring every ton of supplies to travel almost sixty miles overland between the Salthar and the Silk Town-Thesmar Canal, which required still more draft animals and wagons.”

Excerpt From: David Weber. “Like a Mighty Army.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/MTdhP.l

I think both of us are barking up the wrong tree. Also you should wait on your theories UNTIL the book is further along so RFC can't erase your steam tugs.

and yes i am re-reading at a slower pace finding those little nuggets dropped on the ground.

after looking at the map what about the Silk Town-Thesmar Canal? Silkiah is no longer neutral...
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by PeterZ   » Mon May 12, 2014 10:38 am

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If the attack on the Salthar Canal comes from both ends and up from the Gulf of Jahras to capture any interior locks intact, the allies could capture a working canal. Defending the canal from the Desnarii forces shouldn't be too difficult as there are very few land routes up from Desnar. If the ICN captures Port Salthar, Desnar has a smaller chance than a snowball in a nuclear furnace of successfully attacking via Hankey Sound and Salthar Bay. I suppose there is a chance that the canal can be taken just using forces attacking Silk Town and up from the Gulf of Jahras. Getting forces in place will be tougher under those circumstances, but possible with judicious use of com equiped personnel and a sejin or two.

Bottom line is that by taking the Salthar-Silk Town Canal the ICN can supposrt a much more active and aggresive operational tempo in the Gulf of Dohlar. Howard and Haven lose their secure communication/logistics routes between them and Dohlar loses the ability to act as the CoGA staging base for their jihad against Siddermark. Every bit of military hardware, every ounce of food and every soldier has to be funneled through the Holy Langehorn and Bedard Canals. That reduces the AoG's potential attack routes substantially.

What other target offers the same sort of benefits? I seriously cannot see one.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Laz,

The Salthar-Silk Town canal is the most strategic objective for the ICN at the moment, ie cutting Sharpfield's communications and supply line from over a hundred days to less than 50 from Tellesburg.

I can't think of a higher priority for the ICN east of Haven and Howard.

From both the online map and the textev, the west end of the Salthar canal is blockaded by the ICN, since the barges go up the coast to Silk Town to get to the Silk Town -- Thesmar canal, which makes a log boom across it to deny entry to an ironclad makes sense of the snippet.

That coastal gap is why the overland alternate route is 'almost 60 miles long'.

Given the 50,000+ ICA that left at the end of September from Port Royal are still unaccounted for, taking the canal makes the most sense, even if they have to do some of it from the Gulf of Jahras, to seize the locks quickly.

Regarding "my" steam tugs [thanks for the compliment, BTW], I think RFC has first call on anything in his universe, and given how smart we both know he is, I'm not worried about it. ;)

L
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by SYED   » Tue May 13, 2014 12:56 am

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Control of the canal between howard and haven, means expansion and control in the gulf of dohlar is a feasable proposition, especially for long term deployments. Those island that are there, will help the imperium control shipping between the continets.
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by laz   » Tue May 13, 2014 3:40 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Bottom line is that by taking the Salthar-Silk Town Canal the ICN can supposrt a much more active and aggresive operational tempo in the Gulf of Dohlar. Howard and Haven lose their secure communication/logistics routes between them and Dohlar loses the ability to act as the CoGA staging base for their jihad against Siddermark. Every bit of military hardware, every ounce of food and every soldier has to be funneled through the Holy Langehorn and Bedard Canals. That reduces the AoG's potential attack routes substantially.

What other target offers the same sort of benefits? I seriously cannot see one.



I agree that it would offer incredible strategic and tactical advantages. But i question being able to hold it. And it only offers those advantages if captured intact (unless the ICN uses a lot of dynamite to expand/remove the need for locks). Not intact it is still a worth while target, but not for keeping...

If the ICN did capture it intact Dohlar would have to do everything it could to disable it. and it is LONG. a couple of sunk boats in the canal and the canal turns into a big anchor on the ICN. The AoG has approved the percussion caps, so how long before they have mines? then under water mines?

the Salthar canal could become a huge boat anchor to man and machine
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Re: Teeny-Tiny HFQ Snippet #2
Post by jgnfld   » Tue May 13, 2014 3:45 pm

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Only half joking: Might be a great place to set off some electrical activity! The OBS blasts a sea level canal, Desnair is cut off entirely, and the Charisians have a sea passage!

laz wrote:
PeterZ wrote:... That reduces the AoG's potential attack routes substantially.

What other target offers the same sort of benefits? I seriously cannot see one.



I agree that it would offer incredible strategic and tactical advantages. But i question being able to hold it. And it only offers those advantages if captured intact ...

the Salthar canal could become a huge boat anchor to man and machine
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