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Demon sightings?!

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Demon sightings?!
Post by eldrwyrm   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:31 pm

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I am listening to BHD again (for the umpteenth time) and Father Halcolm is speculating on the possibility of denouncing Merlin as a demon or receiving demonic-assistance. He remarks on the fact that it had been, "over 700 years since anyone had seen a true demon."

This would obviously have been during 'Shan-Wei's Rebellion'; but would regular people fighting for Shan-Wei's cause have been considered demons, or is this after the fact propaganda that is attempting to classify all of her supporters as demons to remove their humanity?
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by RHWoodman   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:54 pm

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eldrwyrm wrote:I am listening to BHD again (for the umpteenth time) and Father Halcolm is speculating on the possibility of denouncing Merlin as a demon or receiving demonic-assistance. He remarks on the fact that it had been, "over 700 years since anyone had seen a true demon."

This would obviously have been during 'Shan-Wei's Rebellion'; but would regular people fighting for Shan-Wei's cause have been considered demons, or is this after the fact propaganda that is attempting to classify all of her supporters as demons to remove their humanity?


That's a good question (although I think that would have been after Shan-Wei's rebellion wouldn't it?), but there's no answer to it. It's a toss-off line. Unless DW decides to develop it further, from our vantage point, we have no way of knowing the story behind it. I'd say it's probably due to superstition and/or fervid imagination rather than anything specifically tied to Shan-Wei's Rebellion.
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:51 pm

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RHWoodman wrote:
eldrwyrm wrote:I am listening to BHD again (for the umpteenth time) and Father Halcolm is speculating on the possibility of denouncing Merlin as a demon or receiving demonic-assistance. He remarks on the fact that it had been, "over 700 years since anyone had seen a true demon."

This would obviously have been during 'Shan-Wei's Rebellion'; but would regular people fighting for Shan-Wei's cause have been considered demons, or is this after the fact propaganda that is attempting to classify all of her supporters as demons to remove their humanity?


That's a good question (although I think that would have been after Shan-Wei's rebellion wouldn't it?), but there's no answer to it. It's a toss-off line. Unless DW decides to develop it further, from our vantage point, we have no way of knowing the story behind it. I'd say it's probably due to superstition and/or fervid imagination rather than anything specifically tied to Shan-Wei's Rebellion.



No, it isn't a toss-off line. :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by RHWoodman   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:00 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:<snip>
That's a good question (although I think that would have been after Shan-Wei's rebellion wouldn't it?), but there's no answer to it. It's a toss-off line. Unless DW decides to develop it further, from our vantage point, we have no way of knowing the story behind it. I'd say it's probably due to superstition and/or fervid imagination rather than anything specifically tied to Shan-Wei's Rebellion.



No, it isn't a toss-off line. :twisted:


You do realize -- don't you? -- that you've just made it more likely that numerous posters here will go into hyper-speculation mode? :P :lol:
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by Fireflair   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:47 pm

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RHWoodman wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
No, it isn't a toss-off line. :twisted:


You do realize -- don't you? -- that you've just made it more likely that numerous posters here will go into hyper-speculation mode? :P :lol:


Of course that was the point.

Let the lurid speculation begin!

And just to get my jab in quickly, I would suspect that it's from the fighting with the Alexandria Enclave. Perhaps the knowledge they shared with people. Showing themselves to be more than the average?
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by McGuiness   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:52 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:<snip>
That's a good question (although I think that would have been after Shan-Wei's rebellion wouldn't it?), but there's no answer to it. It's a toss-off line. Unless DW decides to develop it further, from our vantage point, we have no way of knowing the story behind it. I'd say it's probably due to superstition and/or fervid imagination rather than anything specifically tied to Shan-Wei's Rebellion.

No, it isn't a toss-off line. :twisted:
Okay... In MTaT the Inquisition officially denounced Merlin as a demon, so "being a demon" according to the CoGA may boil down to being politically or philosophically opposed to the Church (or a powerful vicar or two,) much as witch burnings always seemed to find enough witches to burn.

"For the diehard Temple Loyalists, there was a simpler, more acceptable explanation, of course—one supplied and endorsed by the Inquisition. They’d long since decided that in addition to all the blasphemies and heresies the world knew about, Cayleb and Sharleyan had sold themselves to Shan-wei—Cayleb in return for his demon familiar, Merlin Athrawes, and the sorceress Sharleyan in return for the power to steal the hearts and minds of even the godliest men and seduce them into Shan-wei’s evil—so of course they could foresee the future as well."

So in the aftermath of Shan-Wei's Rebellion, I'd expect a "demon burning" now and then if some unfortunate soul did something horribly offensive, like say, attempt to protect his daughters from lecherous inquisitors! :lol:

Note that even today the first impulse of many of the CoGA soldiers when they see a signal rocket is to panic and scream "Demons!" The fear of the bogeyman is buried deep in Safehold's soul, which is just one more bit of Church training that's going to have to be exposed as false, and education is its only cure.

So whether there was a "real" demon seven centuries ago or some variation of what I've just suggested, I'm sure RFC will tell us about it when the plot requires it. But whoever the last "demon" was, he or she didn't actually require demonic abilities or weapons to be charged as one.

Slander is unfortunately, quite easy, especially when you can gain something from it (note the denunciations of reformists in Siddarmark at the moment) or work for the Inquisition, and ignorance and fear fanned by religion has produced some very brutal results throughout history.

Frankly I'm astonished that being accused of being a demon hasn't happened more often than it has, although I suspect the bar is a bit higher to be convicted of being a "true demon." I expect that "demons" will pop up all over the place as the religious war spreads, especially wherever the ironclads sound their steam whistles! :D

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, "I wish my vocabulary wasn't so limited..."
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by ColonialBoy   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:54 pm

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RHWoodman wrote:
runsforcelery wrote: No, it isn't a toss-off line. :twisted:
You do realize -- don't you? -- that you've just made it more likely that numerous posters here will go into hyper-speculation mode? :P :lol:
"Hyper-speculation"? How much speculation do you think is required?

There is actual, published textev (but I'm not sure if it is in OAR or BSRU) where "Merlin" thinks the Langhorne faction could have a PICA (w/a standard 10-day clock) stashed under the Temple. What else do you think one of the innocent, non-technical Adams or Eves would have called something that had the superhuman speed and strength of a PICA that was invulnerable to any [of the edged] weapons available to them? Only the "Archangels" :mrgreen: would have had weapons that could stop one of these "demons" :twisted:
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by Chemechie   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:03 pm

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At the beginning of OAR, an 'angel' visits Tellesberg (I'm not home and don't have the book handy) during the rebellion who appears to be one of Shan-wei's supporters/ faction members.

I suspect that not all of her supporters died in the fighting, or if they did it took quite a while, and any remaining crewmen with access to modern equipment, i.e. 'angels', that took her side would have been branded 'demons' by Langhorne's supporters who as we know eventually won and therefore got to write the history books.

They could have quietly formed a settlement with technology (maybe) and a memory of Earth (definitely) that has so far escaped notice, like a bigger version of what the Wylsynns have preserved. it would be interesting if somebody else with technology comm'd Merlin or otherwise surprised him.
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by McGuiness   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:07 pm

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ColonialBoy wrote:"Hyper-speculation"? How much speculation do you think is required?

There is actual, published textev (but I'm not sure if it is in OAR or BSRU) where "Merlin" thinks the Langhorne faction could have a PICA (w/a standard 10-day clock) stashed under the Temple. What else do you think one of the innocent, non-technical Adams or Eves would have called something that had the superhuman speed and strength of a PICA that was invulnerable to any [of the edged] weapons available to them? Only the "Archangels" :mrgreen: would have had weapons that could stop one of these "demons" :twisted:
There's "accusing someone of being a demon" and that entity being found to be an actual "true demon," and that hasn't happened in seven centuries.

A PICA under the temple would almost certainly be on Langhorne's side, and would be treated as an Archangel, not a demon. Plus there's the difficulty of trying a PICA in a church court to demonstrate that it's a demon, which simply ain't gonna happen! Great speculation, but I think it's unlikely - especially since a PICA would wake up occasionally to see if the church had run off the rails, and that clearly hasn't happened or it would have intervened over a century ago.

I'm not saying you're wrong, since only RFC knows for sure, but for the reasons I've cited I find it highly unlikely that the last "true demon" was a PICA from under the temple.

"Oh, bother," said Pooh, "I wish my vocabulary wasn't so limited..."
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Re: Demon sightings?!
Post by Charles83   » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:48 pm

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McGuiness wrote:There's "accusing someone of being a demon" and that entity being found to be an actual "true demon," and that hasn't happened in seven centuries.

A PICA under the temple would almost certainly be on Langhorne's side, and would be treated as an Archangel, not a demon. Plus there's the difficulty of trying a PICA in a church court to demonstrate that it's a demon, which simply ain't gonna happen! Great speculation, but I think it's unlikely - especially since a PICA would wake up occasionally to see if the church had run off the rails, and that clearly hasn't happened or it would have intervened over a century ago.

I'm not saying you're wrong, since only RFC knows for sure, but for the reasons I've cited I find it highly unlikely that the last "true demon" was a PICA from under the temple.


A PICA under the temple would be the perfect option to explain where the legends of the seijin's start, since the people of langhorne wouldn't have wanted to surrender their power as archangels, we still don't know but the normal people of the fleet may have been referred as angels while the officers could have been archangels, of course they could have said that some of those enlisted were seijin's, people touched with the little fire of god, while the archangels were touched by the big fire.

We really havent talked much about this, but the fleet couldn't have been only the officers who ended up as archangels, there must have been a lot more people, enlisted people, machinists, engineers, etc etc, we have never tried to pin down how these people were referred, most of our debate ussually focus on the officers and what they did, and we know that langhorne put all the most important officers of the fleet as archangels, but we never get info about the less important officers or the enlisted or any other crewman on the fleet.

Remember that marines specially american marines are considered bloodthirsty barbarians capable of destroying anything, if any marine went to the shan wei faction, with their level of agressiveness and lethality they would be the perfect example of "Demon", I know that marines are not bloodthirsty barbarians I just say thats how they are painted a lot of the time, they are soldiers who train a lot and if RFC decide to model the marines of the fleet based on modern american marines, then we could have the definition of "Demon" right there, and there could be hundred of other explanations as to what the archangels decided to paint as demons for the colonists of safehold.
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