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How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?

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How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:36 pm

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I saw the following in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Firm_a_Foundation_%28hymn%29 wrote:

How Firm a Foundation (hymn)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* Not to be confused with How Firm a Foundation (novel), of David Weber's Safehold series.

How Firm a Foundation is a Christian hymn, written by John Rippon in 1787. The tune was composed by Joseph Funk in 1832. The hymn was played at the funerals of several politicians from the United States. It was also the favorite hymn of General Robert E. Lee. On Christmas Eve of 1898, American units involved in the Spanish American War joined together to sing the hymn. The units were from the North and the South.
edit External links

* http://hymntime.com/tch/htm/h/o/w/howfirm.htm
* http://www.tanbible.com/tol_sng/howfirmafoundation.htm


I am aware that DW has said that he is a "Methodist lay preacher". (BTW, could a "Deacon" be another name for a "lay preacher"?) I'm confident that such a background HAS given him a lot of fodder for various works/ideas of his.

What I wonder is if this background/exposure is also responsible for the name of this book?

Or, to be right to the point:
Is the Hymn somehow related to the theme(s) in the book?

.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold and the Kau-zhi star system, are now available at: http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by RHWoodman   » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:29 pm

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Ensign Re-read wrote:I saw the following in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Firm_a_Foundation_%28hymn%29 wrote:

How Firm a Foundation (hymn)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* Not to be confused with How Firm a Foundation (novel), of David Weber's Safehold series.

How Firm a Foundation is a Christian hymn, written by John Rippon in 1787. The tune was composed by Joseph Funk in 1832. The hymn was played at the funerals of several politicians from the United States. It was also the favorite hymn of General Robert E. Lee. On Christmas Eve of 1898, American units involved in the Spanish American War joined together to sing the hymn. The units were from the North and the South.
edit External links

* http://hymntime.com/tch/htm/h/o/w/howfirm.htm
* http://www.tanbible.com/tol_sng/howfirmafoundation.htm


I am aware that DW has said that he is a "Methodist lay preacher". (BTW, could a "Deacon" be another name for a "lay preacher"?) I'm confident that such a background HAS given him a lot of fodder for various works/ideas of his.

What I wonder is if this background/exposure is also responsible for the name of this book?

Or, to be right to the point:
Is the Hymn somehow related to the theme(s) in the book?

.


Hi, Ensign Re-Read,

I'm quite sure that the hymn is somehow related to the theme of the book. MWW doesn't just pick these hymns "off the cuff". There is a purpose to the name.

I'm not sure that the last verse applies to the book, but I may be wrong. I can hypothesize how the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th verses could apply to various developments in the book. The first verse should have some application, but it may be more abstract, such as, Merlin is laying a firm foundation for discrediting the Church of God Awaiting.

I also considered the possibility that this hymn somehow was brought by the "archangels" to the "Adams" and "Eves" of Safehold and has become a favorite of one of the royal house of the Charisian Empire. That may be too far-fetched, though, to materialize.

Still, the book comes out in a few days, and it will all then be clear. <smile>

RH Woodman
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by iranuke   » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:53 pm

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"Still, the book comes out in a few days, and it will all then be clear. <smile>

RH Woodman"

I disagree vehimently. Some questions will be answered in the book, but I am quite sure that at the end of the book there will be numerous questions that are not answered and new questions that will be raised.
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by RHWoodman   » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:27 pm

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iranuke wrote:"Still, the book comes out in a few days, and it will all then be clear. <smile>

RH Woodman"

I disagree vehimently. Some questions will be answered in the book, but I am quite sure that at the end of the book there will be numerous questions that are not answered and new questions that will be raised.


Well, iranuke, I should have been more clear in what I wrote. What I meant was that the relationship of the hymn to the title of the book will be clear. In none of his books, so far as I know, has DW ever used a title that did not relate clearly to the storyline he had written. In every one of the Safehold series books, the title has related to the content in some obvious way. That is what I meant when I said "it will all then be clear."

Do you disagree with that?
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:03 am

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RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--
I'm quite sure that the hymn is somehow related to the theme of the book. MWW doesn't just pick these hymns "off the cuff". There is a purpose to the name.
--CLIP--


I went ahead and googled the other book titles.

---
I didn't find anything for the first two books.

---
I did find one obscure reference for BHD:

"By Heresies Distressed": Episcopal Bishopess Schori On Immigration
david at virtueonline.org david at virtueonline.org
Thu Sep 9 20:19:19 CDT 2010
http://listserv.virtueonline.org/piperm ... 11308.html


I don't see this as being a plausible link to the book title.

---
AMF was the only other one (besides HFaF) that had a plausible relationship to a hymn title:

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (German, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott) is the best known of Martin Luther's hymns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mighty_F ... Is_Our_God

---
I suspect that if there is a hymn "pattern" to the book titles, it's only for the last two books.

Still, it would be nice to know...
.
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold and the Kau-zhi star system, are now available at: http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by runsforcelery   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:07 am

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Ensign Re-read wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--
I'm quite sure that the hymn is somehow related to the theme of the book. MWW doesn't just pick these hymns "off the cuff". There is a purpose to the name.
--CLIP--


I went ahead and googled the other book titles.

---
I didn't find anything for the first two books.

---
I did find one obscure reference for BHD:

"By Heresies Distressed": Episcopal Bishopess Schori On Immigration
david at virtueonline.org david at virtueonline.org
Thu Sep 9 20:19:19 CDT 2010
http://listserv.virtueonline.org/piperm ... 11308.html


I don't see this as being a plausible link to the book title.

---
AMF was the only other one (besides HFaF) that had a plausible relationship to a hymn title:

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (German, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott) is the best known of Martin Luther's hymns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mighty_F ... Is_Our_God

---
I suspect that if there is a hymn "pattern" to the book titles, it's only for the last two books.

Still, it would be nice to know...
.



Ah? [he asked slyly]

So you see no link between say, the Church of God Awaiting being disressed by heresies or rent asunder by schism? Odd. I sort of thought that was what was happening all over Safehold, at least as far as the Church is concerned.

Course, I guess I could be mistaken . . . .


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:12 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
Ensign Re-read wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--
I'm quite sure that the hymn is somehow related to the theme of the book. MWW doesn't just pick these hymns "off the cuff". There is a purpose to the name.
--CLIP--


I went ahead and googled the other book titles.

---
I didn't find anything for the first two books.

---
I did find one obscure reference for BHD:

"By Heresies Distressed": Episcopal Bishopess Schori On Immigration
david at virtueonline.org david at virtueonline.org
Thu Sep 9 20:19:19 CDT 2010
http://listserv.virtueonline.org/piperm ... 11308.html


I don't see this as being a plausible link to the book title.

---
AMF was the only other one (besides HFaF) that had a plausible relationship to a hymn title:

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (German, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott) is the best known of Martin Luther's hymns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mighty_F ... Is_Our_God

---
I suspect that if there is a hymn "pattern" to the book titles, it's only for the last two books.

Still, it would be nice to know...
.



Ah? [he asked slyly]

So you see no link between say, the Church of God Awaiting being disressed by heresies or rent asunder by schism? Odd. I sort of thought that was what was happening all over Safehold, at least as far as the Church is concerned.

Course, I guess I could be mistaken . . . .


Hellooooo DW!!!
No, I didn't say there was no link between the titles and the books themselves (or at least I didn't mean that), I said there was no link (that I could see) between the first two or three book titles and any pattern of HYMN Titles.

Since you're lurking here, can you confirm?

Were the last two book titles (AMF & HFaF) chosen because the text of their related hymns (of the same or similar name) were related to the theme/contents of the book?

waiting...
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold and the Kau-zhi star system, are now available at: http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by RHWoodman   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 am

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Ensign Re-read wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--
I'm quite sure that the hymn is somehow related to the theme of the book. MWW doesn't just pick these hymns "off the cuff". There is a purpose to the name.
--CLIP--


I went ahead and googled the other book titles.

---
I didn't find anything for the first two books.

---
I did find one obscure reference for BHD:

"By Heresies Distressed": Episcopal Bishopess Schori On Immigration
david at virtueonline.org david at virtueonline.org
Thu Sep 9 20:19:19 CDT 2010
http://listserv.virtueonline.org/piperm ... 11308.html


I don't see this as being a plausible link to the book title.

---
AMF was the only other one (besides HFaF) that had a plausible relationship to a hymn title:

"A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" (German, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott) is the best known of Martin Luther's hymns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mighty_F ... Is_Our_God

---
I suspect that if there is a hymn "pattern" to the book titles, it's only for the last two books.

Still, it would be nice to know...
.


Off Armageddon Reef related to the central battle of that book. (The Battle of Darcos Sound was the climactic battle, but Darcos Sound was not as important as the Battle of Armageddon Reef.)

By Schism Rent Asunder comes from the hymn The Church's One Foundation and refers to the rending of Safehold by the schism of the Church of Charis from the Church of God Awaiting.

By Heresies Distressed also comes from The Church's One Foundation. (In fact, both titles come from the same line in the hymn:

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed,

Yet saints their watch are keeping;
Their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.

It refers, I think, to the treatment of Charisian "heretics" by the CoGA and also to the distress that the innovations and other "heresies" of Charis are causing to Safehold. Actually, Clyntahn is the source of the distress, but Charis is getting blamed for the trouble by the CoGA. (Alternately, with our author-eye view of the history of Safehold, we could charge the CoGA with heresy, but that's another discussion.) It also shows that the theme of book 2 is continued in book 3. One could also argue that the entire verse referred to in those two books is relevant, but I don't know that is the case.

A Mighty Fortress, the famous hymn by Luther, is clearly a reference to the protection that the walls of the ships of the Charisian Empire and its brave sailors and soldiers provide to the Charisian Empire.

How Firm a Foundation, in all likelihood, has a touchstone in the book, but I don't know what it might be, and I won't know until I can read the entire book.

I wish that First Space Lord Runsforcelery had given us a bit more explanation in his post. <smile>

Edited because I accidentally posted before I read and considered DW's post.

RH Woodman
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by Ensign Re-read   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:00 am

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RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--

Off Armageddon Reef related to the central battle of that book. (The Battle of Darcos Sound was the climactic battle, but Darcos Sound was not as important as the Battle of Armageddon Reef.)

By Schism Rent Asunder comes from the hymn The Church's One Foundation and refers to the rending of Safehold by the schism of the Church of Charis from the Church of God Awaiting.

By Heresies Distressed also comes from The Church's One Foundation. (In fact, both titles come from the same line in the hymn:

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed,

Yet saints their watch are keeping;
Their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.

--CLIP--

RH Woodman


Hmmm...

I agree re OAR.

I have not noticed the Hymn that you refer to re BSRA and BHD.
I _ASSUME_ that it's in the book(s), and not in the "real world".

Am I right about that?
If yes, can you cite where it's in the book(s)?
=====
The Celestia "addon" for the Planet Safehold and the Kau-zhi star system, are now available at: http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/weber/.
=====
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68506297@N ... 740128635/
=====
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Re: How Firm a Foundation (hymn) <== Is there a link?
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:21 am

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Location: East Central Illinois

_The Church's One Foundation_ is a real-world hymn. [Smile]


Ensign Re-read wrote:
RHWoodman wrote:--CLIP--

Off Armageddon Reef related to the central battle of that book. (The Battle of Darcos Sound was the climactic battle, but Darcos Sound was not as important as the Battle of Armageddon Reef.)

By Schism Rent Asunder comes from the hymn The Church's One Foundation and refers to the rending of Safehold by the schism of the Church of Charis from the Church of God Awaiting.

By Heresies Distressed also comes from The Church's One Foundation. (In fact, both titles come from the same line in the hymn:

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed,

Yet saints their watch are keeping;
Their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.

--CLIP--

RH Woodman


Hmmm...

I agree re OAR.

I have not noticed the Hymn that you refer to re BSRA and BHD.
I _ASSUME_ that it's in the book(s), and not in the "real world".

Am I right about that?
If yes, can you cite where it's in the book(s)?
*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
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