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Where do Archangels go to die?

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Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:45 pm

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Operation Ark's command crew had a good cover story for the Adams and Eves.

They were actually immortal spirits who lived in heaven with God. But when God decided to create Humanity on Safehold and charged a group of Archangels and Angels led by Langhorne to prepare Safehold for humanity, they were given material bodies to permit them to do the work. Material things are impermanent. So while those bodies would be mortal, the command crew would live a lot longer than the Adams and Eves. When their mortal bodies wore out, their spirits would return to heaven to be with God.

I wondered just how that would be handled. When the end was near, would they inform the people of Safehold they were being called to return to God, and go off and expire somewhere out of public view? Actually publicly dying and leaving behind a corpse might be injurious to the faithful's belief.

But the waters were muddied by comments like Nynian's in conversation with Merlin about what happened to Seijin Kohdy:

"This was in the period immediately after the Fallen’s final defeat, you understand, after Schueler and Chihiro had departed in victory—the period in which I think the remaining Angels were waiting for the last Adams and Eves to die before purging The Testimonies."

Chihiro and Schueler departing in victory raises the question "Departed to where?" We also know the Archangel's servitors returned to the Dawn Star and it departed in glory. We know the Dawn Star was really Langhorne's command ship, Hamilcar. Again, departed to where, and who might have been on board when it did? We did get the impression Chihiro and Schueler's departure coincided with the Dawn Star's leaving Safehold's sky.

I asked David "Departed to where?" at a con. The only places I was aware of to be were Safehold or a ship that brought people to Safehold. David said we would eventually find out where they wound up and what happened to them, and commented elsewhere here "Hamilcar is gone!" Well, so it is, but but where it went and whether it might return was unspecified.

The ending of AtSoT contradicts previous statements. There, we learn that the temple dedicated to Schueler in his Episcopate was specifically created to house the tomb of the worn out mortal body he left behind, and the Holy Day on which his shade appeared to the faithful was the anniversary of the day his soul departed his body and returned to God. Precisely when that event occurred is unspecified, but it seems a safe bet that Schueler was still alive and present on Safehold rather after the end of the War Against the Fallen. He didn't depart when it ended.

Of course, this open up the question "What happened to Chihiro? When did he leave the building, and how was his departure handled?"

For that matter, there are the rest of the Archangels in the pantheon. Only Langhorne and Bedard were present in Langhorne's HQ when Commodore Pei nuked it. (I think their deaths would have been recorded had they also been present.) Are there other temples on Safehold dedicated to other Archangels and built to house their tombs, with festivals to commemorate their spirit's return to God in heaven? I'd call that likely.
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Dennis
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Re: Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by Julia Minor   » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:24 am

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My theory, brought up in an earlier post, is that "departed in glory/in victory" is the standard CoGA euphemism for death when talking about an angel or archangel. (Based off reading Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People in college, where anyone Bede considered Christian "passed from life into life".) That said, there's certainly no reason why the command staff couldn't have been carrying something designed to monitor their health via NEAT and create a flare of light when lifesigns ended, to make that phrasing literal as well as metaphorical.

Given the established doctrine that the physical bodies of the archangels were temporary housing, I don't think they'd need to hide somewhere before they died. If they were dying of illness, that would be different, but they all had full Federation medical nanites so cause of death would be simple old age -- i.e. bodies wearing out, which is certainly compatible with CoGA theology.
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Re: Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:25 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:My theory, brought up in an earlier post, is that "departed in glory/in victory" is the standard CoGA euphemism for death when talking about an angel or archangel. (Based off reading Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People in college, where anyone Bede considered Christian "passed from life into life".) That said, there's certainly no reason why the command staff couldn't have been carrying something designed to monitor their health via NEAT and create a flare of light when lifesigns ended, to make that phrasing literal as well as metaphorical.

Hmmm. Neat (sic) idea. :P And Federation class monitoring and medical support could provide advance warning death was approaching, and the Archangel could tell the faithful "The time for me to return to God in heaven is near. Soon, my soul will depart this used up mortal body. But fear not, my children. This body will die, but I will still live, in heaven with God from whence I came and to whence I shall return!"

Given the established doctrine that the physical bodies of the archangels were temporary housing, I don't think they'd need to hide somewhere before they died. If they were dying of illness, that would be different, but they all had full Federation medical nanites so cause of death would be simple old age -- i.e. bodies wearing out, which is certainly compatible with CoGA theology.

Oh, I agree. But my larger point is the the end of AtSoT provides the first description of what happened after an Archangel died. In Schueler's case, a tomb was created to hold his mortal remains, and a temple was raised over the tomb, and an annual festival was held to commemorate the date when his blessed spirit returned to Heaven to be with God. Somehow, I don't think Schueler was the only departed Archangel to get that sort of sendoff.

I wonder what other Archangel tombs might be scattered about, what ceremonies attach to their departure, and especially, what else besides their mortal remains might be down their in their tombs.

(If you assume, as I do, that Schueler's appearance in his temple on the anniversary of his departure to return to God was not a sneaky IC trick, the tech that enabled it has to be somewhere, and "buried under the temple with Schueler's mortal remains" is the most obvious place. I have to wonder what may be scattered about elsewhere in places like that.)
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Re: Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:56 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:My theory, brought up in an earlier post, is that "departed in glory/in victory" is the standard CoGA euphemism for death when talking about an angel or archangel. (Based off reading Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People in college, where anyone Bede considered Christian "passed from life into life".) That said, there's certainly no reason why the command staff couldn't have been carrying something designed to monitor their health via NEAT and create a flare of light when lifesigns ended, to make that phrasing literal as well as metaphorical.

Hmmm. Neat (sic) idea. :P And Federation class monitoring and medical support could provide advance warning death was approaching, and the Archangel could tell the faithful "The time for me to return to God in heaven is near. Soon, my soul will depart this used up mortal body. But fear not, my children. This body will die, but I will still live, in heaven with God from whence I came and to whence I shall return!"

Given the established doctrine that the physical bodies of the archangels were temporary housing, I don't think they'd need to hide somewhere before they died. If they were dying of illness, that would be different, but they all had full Federation medical nanites so cause of death would be simple old age -- i.e. bodies wearing out, which is certainly compatible with CoGA theology.

Oh, I agree. But my larger point is the the end of AtSoT provides the first description of what happened after an Archangel died. In Schueler's case, a tomb was created to hold his mortal remains, and a temple was raised over the tomb, and an annual festival was held to commemorate the date when his blessed spirit returned to Heaven to be with God. Somehow, I don't think Schueler was the only departed Archangel to get that sort of sendoff.

I wonder what other Archangel tombs might be scattered about, what ceremonies attach to their departure, and especially, what else besides their mortal remains might be down their in their tombs.

(If you assume, as I do, that Schueler's appearance in his temple on the anniversary of his departure to return to God was not a sneaky IC trick, the tech that enabled it has to be somewhere, and "buried under the temple with Schueler's mortal remains" is the most obvious place. I have to wonder what may be scattered about elsewhere in places like that.)
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Dennis

Do you have any textev that whatever body (if any) in the tomb is Schueler's? Or is this another "Hector was mortally wounded" misdirection our favorite author likes to toss at us?
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Re: Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:13 am

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Julia Minor wrote:My theory, brought up in an earlier post, is that "departed in glory/in victory" is the standard CoGA euphemism for death when talking about an angel or archangel. (Based off reading Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People in college, where anyone Bede considered Christian "passed from life into life".) That said, there's certainly no reason why the command staff couldn't have been carrying something designed to monitor their health via NEAT and create a flare of light when lifesigns ended, to make that phrasing literal as well as metaphorical.

Given the established doctrine that the physical bodies of the archangels were temporary housing, I don't think they'd need to hide somewhere before they died. If they were dying of illness, that would be different, but they all had full Federation medical nanites so cause of death would be simple old age -- i.e. bodies wearing out, which is certainly compatible with CoGA theology.


v interesting possibility Julia

It must have been very lonely indeed for those last Angels - konowing that their end was coming and that there would/could be no friends around them.

one can see why Schuhler had a secret family!
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Re: Where do Archangels go to die?
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:42 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
dmccunney wrote:(If you assume, as I do, that Schueler's appearance in his temple on the anniversary of his departure to return to God was not a sneaky IC trick, the tech that enabled it has to be somewhere, and "buried under the temple with Schueler's mortal remains" is the most obvious place. I have to wonder what may be scattered about elsewhere in places like that.)
Do you have any textev that whatever body (if any) in the tomb is Schueler's? Or is this another "Hector was mortally wounded" misdirection our favorite author likes to toss at us?
What other body might it have been?

And in any case, it doesn't matter. The Temple was built to house the tomb containing Schueler's mortal remains, and the Faithful believe there's a body in the tomb and that it's Schueler's body. I'm not certain I see a point to a substitution. Given that they were celebrating the anniversary of the return of Schueler's soul to God, there is likely documentation in the Order of Schueler's files describing that blessed event.

And JuliaMinor has a good point about TF medical support. There would be enough advance warning that Schueler was going to leave the building for a tomb to house his body and a temple to house the tomb to be built before he left.

But my main point isn't the body in the tomb - it's what else might be buried along with it.
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