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Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race

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Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by jasmikelos9   » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:15 am

jasmikelos9
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I'm behind. Severely. I'm a little less than halfway through At the Sign of Triumph, but just wanted to ask a question. Anyone else super hyped for the inevitable dreadnought race, now that the King Haarahld class exists and is literally just a pre-dreadnought battleship?

Also, if you're into that era of warfare, try out Steam and Iron or Rule the Waves, early 19th century naval combat simulators and wargames, which are incredibly in depth and fun.
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by jtg452   » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:27 pm

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If you think about it, the dreadnought race is a poison pill.

Nations with the wish to be a naval power of any stature must have an equivalent.

Nothing under sail is going to be able to face one and they can't get away from one either. There wasn't much that could hang with the Charisan navy when they were still sail only (note what happens when they end up facing the latest sailing warships), so what's it like now?

Think about what they are going to have to do to make that happen?

To even stay within shouting distance of Charis, you have to become like them- at least in industrial matters. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.

Isn't one of Merlin's primary objectives to spread technology, innovation and undermining the Proscriptions?
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by Daryl   » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:59 am

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In OTL the French built two steam ironclads (La Gloire and another). Britain built the Warrior in response.
It had mixed blessings. In one stroke it restored any doubt about Britain having the most capable warship, best naval technology, and best industrial base.
However at the same time it made the entire British line of battle obsolete.

When the Dreadnaught was built it was also the most capable warship afloat, however it was an evolutionary step, and not as dramatic an escalation in capability as the Warrior was a generation earlier.
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by jtg452   » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:41 am

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Daryl wrote:In OTL the French built two steam ironclads (La Gloire and another). Britain built the Warrior in response.
It had mixed blessings. In one stroke it restored any doubt about Britain having the most capable warship, best naval technology, and best industrial base.
However at the same time it made the entire British line of battle obsolete.

When the Dreadnaught was built it was also the most capable warship afloat, however it was an evolutionary step, and not as dramatic an escalation in capability as the Warrior was a generation earlier.

The Frogs and the Brits shared a tech base and had been in an arms race- when they weren't actively fighting each other- for 5 or 6 centuries at that point.

This situation is more along the lines of if they had introduced a steam ironclad in 1750.
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:42 pm

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jasmikelos9 wrote:I'm behind. Severely. I'm a little less than halfway through At the Sign of Triumph, but just wanted to ask a question. Anyone else super hyped for the inevitable dreadnought race, now that the King Haarahld class exists and is literally just a pre-dreadnought battleship?


I was. Then RFC spend the last book describing in details those marvelous Charisian new warships, and only in dismissive way mention Dohlarian first steamship (the first steamship ACTUALLY designed by Safeholdian engineers, without the help of all-knowing supercomputer!) as having some kind of accident. So, I'm afraid from there we would have the same as in later Honorverse books; mighty Charisian navy would smash everyone else effortless and without suffering any causalities except for some dastardly sneaky attacks. Unfortunately, RFC is prone to that.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by Jeslis   » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:27 am

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While I don't exactly disagree with what you've said.. I hope that (or get the impression that) the '2nd chapter' of the series will be more spycraft/small unit action.. with possible 'artillery support' from said ships.... which is a viable way of writing it.

I mean, it'd be boring if the next 3-5 books were just 'WWII without electricity', when the first 1-9 books were 'up to WWI'

Point of clarification; The Dohlarian steamship (IMO) wasn't exactly talked about dismissify if I recall correctly... it was more akin to 'yay someone else built one with their own industry' combined with a 'cursed ship story'.

---------

All that being said; something tells me future HH books will have a decidedly balanced/infavorable tech balance (towards Manticore), especially if a similar 10-30 year writing time jump is utilized like Safehold was written.

Dilandu wrote:I was. Then RFC spend the last book describing in details those marvelous Charisian new warships, and only in dismissive way mention Dohlarian first steamship (the first steamship ACTUALLY designed by Safeholdian engineers, without the help of all-knowing supercomputer!) as having some kind of accident. So, I'm afraid from there we would have the same as in later Honorverse books; mighty Charisian navy would smash everyone else effortless and without suffering any causalities except for some dastardly sneaky attacks. Unfortunately, RFC is prone to that.
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:13 am

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Jeslis wrote:
Point of clarification; The Dohlarian steamship (IMO) wasn't exactly talked about dismissify if I recall correctly... it was more akin to 'yay someone else built one with their own industry' combined with a 'cursed ship story'.


Nah, there weren't any "yay" for sure.



All that being said; something tells me future HH books will have a decidedly balanced/infavorable tech balance (towards Manticore), especially if a similar 10-30 year writing time jump is utilized like Safehold was written.


I sincerely hope so, because the whole Manticorian-Solarian war was extremely tedious example of national-scale Mary Sue beating cardboard cut villains, who provide less suspense or resistance than training dummy.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Pre-dreadnoughts and the Dreadnought Race
Post by Cartref   » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:10 pm

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jtg452 wrote:
To even stay within shouting distance of Charis, you have to become like them- at least in industrial matters. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.

Isn't one of Merlin's primary objectives to spread technology, innovation and undermining the Proscriptions?


Yes that is the entire point of Merlin's strategy. By following it he was forcing Old Church Alliances to break the restrictions and prohibitions on being anti technology :D
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