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Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?

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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:16 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:
Owl was able to create Nimue's PICA chassis because it had Merlin's to examine and reverse engineer. If you don't have the plans, a working model you can examine and reverse engineer is the next best thing.
As I recall, Owl couldn't reverse engineer Merlin's PICA because the process was too likely to take Merlin off-line -- or at the very least, trigger a system reset that would restore the ten day limit. Nahrmahn and Owl did VR research to figure out how to create Nimue's PICA.
There were limits on what they could poke at without triggering a reset. But if they didn't have Merlin's PICA to examine, I don't think they could have done it at all. They might not be able to poke at the section containing the CPU where Merlin's stored personality would execute, but most of the rest would be fair game for examination. (And Owl might have started with his own CPU and personality storage hardware ans a place to start when coming up with one for another PICA.)
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by Hildum   » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:12 pm

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I have no doubt that the Federation sent a database with every bit of technology they had, confidential, classified, or even illegal. Remember, the expectation was that the survivors would eventually have to fight the Gbaba again. This certainly would have include detailed plans for creating PICAs, which would be incredibly valuable as the colony recovered and advanced its technology base. No doubt they had a complete federation database.

However, it would not have been on Hamilcar at that point. It would have been in the Alexandria colony, the intended repository of knowledge that would have made the rebirth of a high technology society possible when the time came. And, like the original Library of Alexandria, it was lost, ground to dust in the bombardment.
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:55 pm

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Hildum wrote:I have no doubt that the Federation sent a database with every bit of technology they had, confidential, classified, or even illegal. Remember, the expectation was that the survivors would eventually have to fight the Gbaba again. This certainly would have include detailed plans for creating PICAs, which would be incredibly valuable as the colony recovered and advanced its technology base. No doubt they had a complete federation database.

However, it would not have been on Hamilcar at that point. It would have been in the Alexandria colony, the intended repository of knowledge that would have made the rebirth of a high technology society possible when the time came. And, like the original Library of Alexandria, it was lost, ground to dust in the bombardment.


But there should be other copies around. Likely well hidden.
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by DMcCunney   » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:32 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Hildum wrote:I have no doubt that the Federation sent a database with every bit of technology they had, confidential, classified, or even illegal. Remember, the expectation was that the survivors would eventually have to fight the Gbaba again. This certainly would have include detailed plans for creating PICAs, which would be incredibly valuable as the colony recovered and advanced its technology base. No doubt they had a complete federation database.

However, it would not have been on Hamilcar at that point. It would have been in the Alexandria colony, the intended repository of knowledge that would have made the rebirth of a high technology society possible when the time came. And, like the original Library of Alexandria, it was lost, ground to dust in the bombardment.
But there should be other copies around. Likely well hidden.
Tell us where, and who hid them? :P
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by DMcCunney   » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:48 pm

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Hildum wrote:I have no doubt that the Federation sent a database with every bit of technology they had, confidential, classified, or even illegal. Remember, the expectation was that the survivors would eventually have to fight the Gbaba again. This certainly would have include detailed plans for creating PICAs, which would be incredibly valuable as the colony recovered and advanced its technology base. No doubt they had a complete federation database.
Not exactly. The colonists needed be be aware the Gbaba existed, and what had happened to Earth, but I'd have included a very strong admonition that "If you develop the capability to get back into space and travel the stars, do not go here!" That part of the map would be marked "Here there be Gbaba!" The point would be avoiding running into them again. Given what happened the first time, the last thing you want is a return match.

However, it would not have been on Hamilcar at that point. It would have been in the Alexandria colony, the intended repository of knowledge that would have made the rebirth of a high technology society possible when the time came. And, like the original Library of Alexandria, it was lost, ground to dust in the bombardment.
Er, why wouldn't it have been? It's a large amount of computer databases, and you certainly want backups. But until Hamilcar is actually discarded, there's no reason not to have it there too. You never can tell when you might want access to something in it.
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:13 pm

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Hildum wrote:I have no doubt that the Federation sent a database with every bit of technology they had, confidential, classified, or even illegal. Remember, the expectation was that the survivors would eventually have to fight the Gbaba again. This certainly would have include detailed plans for creating PICAs, which would be incredibly valuable as the colony recovered and advanced its technology base. No doubt they had a complete federation database.

DMcCunney wrote:Not exactly. The colonists needed be be aware the Gbaba existed, and what had happened to Earth, but I'd have included a very strong admonition that "If you develop the capability to get back into space and travel the stars, do not go here!" That part of the map would be marked "Here there be Gbaba!" The point would be avoiding running into them again. Given what happened the first time, the last thing you want is a return match.

However, it would not have been on Hamilcar at that point. It would have been in the Alexandria colony, the intended repository of knowledge that would have made the rebirth of a high technology society possible when the time came. And, like the original Library of Alexandria, it was lost, ground to dust in the bombardment.

DMcCunney wrote:Er, why wouldn't it have been? It's a large amount of computer databases, and you certainly want backups. But until Hamilcar is actually discarded, there's no reason not to have it there too. You never can tell when you might want access to something in it.
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Dennis

Hamilcar was Shan-Weis HQ for the terraforming effort. Given that she and hers were not too certain about Langhorne and co, she could have made sure that the information was removed (or hidden) from the main memory banks of the Hamilcar, just to keep it out of Langhorne's hands. Recall that she was only able to extract OWL as a computing complex, so the other information may be stored elsewhere on Safehold, or lost.
========================

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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:38 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Hamilcar was Shan-Weis HQ for the terraforming effort. Given that she and hers were not too certain about Langhorne and co, she could have made sure that the information was removed (or hidden) from the main memory banks of the Hamilcar, just to keep it out of Langhorne's hands. Recall that she was only able to extract OWL as a computing complex, so the other information may be stored elsewhere on Safehold, or lost.

A good point, and possible. But it presents the same challenges Shan Wei and Kau Yung faced in setting up Nimue's Cave. Hamilcar was also Langhorne's command ship. Owl didn't come from Hamilcar - it was a tactical computer installed in one of the Operation Ark escorts, and removed and diverted by Kau Yung before that ship was dropped into the local sun. Shan Wei and Kau Yung had to do plain and fancy fiddling to preserve and stash away on Safehold what they did save, to prevent their efforts from being noticed. (And deciding what needed to be deleted would be an even bigger quandary. Advanced knowledge can always be used in manners not thought of by those who created it, including stuff you are correct in assuming you need.)

Hamilcar was originally intended for disposal too, but there is TextEv that Chihiro was already considering retaining it before Armageddon Reef. The OBS was constructed there and deployed by Angels loyal to Chihiro, and the servitors used in the War Against the Fallen were constructed there, and returned there after the conclusion of the War.

While it's possible Shan Wei (or more likely Proctor), might have discretely deleted stuff from Hamilcar's databases to keep it out of Langhorne's hands, doing so without somebody noticing and saying "Wait a minute!" would have been a non-trivial exercise.

My original assumption stands - Chihiro and co. did not build last generation PICAs during the War Against the Fallen because they couldn't - the plans didn't exist. Had they been able to, they likely wouldn't have needed the Seijins. (And had they been able to, Chihiro would have been delighted to upload his personality into a PICA, and rule Safehold in an immortal body. I asked RFC at a con whether Chihiro might have recorded his personality as death approached and uploaded it to a PICA. He said "If he could do that, Chihiro wouldn't have waited!" And he'd have a cover story. His shiny new immortal body was a penance. He failed to stop Shan Wei, so was sentenced to remain on Safehold guiding it, while his fellow angels and Archangels returned to Heaven to be with God.)

I personally don't think those plans were included in what was sent with Operation Ark to begin with. That would have focused on "We are sending out a last ditch colony fleet to avoid the Gbaba, go far away, and set up a world where a remnant of humanity will still exist. What information will be needed for that effort to insure a colony can be planted and survive?"

Various stuff wouldn't have been included because anything discovered can be rediscovered, and the folks on Safehold could eventually do so if they discovered a need for the knowledge.
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:39 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:

SNIP

My original assumption stands - Chihiro and co. did not build last generation PICAs during the War Against the Fallen because they couldn't - the plans didn't exist. Had they been able to, they likely wouldn't have needed the Seijins. (And had they been able to, Chihiro would have been delighted to upload his personality into a PICA, and rule Safehold in an immortal body. I asked RFC at a con whether Chihiro might have recorded his personality as death approached and uploaded it to a PICA. He said "If he could do that, Chihiro wouldn't have waited!" And he'd have a cover story. His shiny new immortal body was a penance. He failed to stop Shan Wei, so was sentenced to remain on Safehold guiding it, while his fellow angels and Archangels returned to Heaven to be with God.)

I personally don't think those plans were included in what was sent with Operation Ark to begin with. That would have focused on "We are sending out a last ditch colony fleet to avoid the Gbaba, go far away, and set up a world where a remnant of humanity will still exist. What information will be needed for that effort to insure a colony can be planted and survive?"

Various stuff wouldn't have been included because anything discovered can be rediscovered, and the folks on Safehold could eventually do so if they discovered a need for the knowledge.
______
Dennis


Looks as if RFC has been changing his mind a bit somewhere.

I just came across a rather definitive para in p322 of ATSoT on the subject of PICAs/archangels
[sadly I only have dead tree version so maybe someone could post it in full]

"We don't know for certain that the Archangels are going to return at all" Merlin said... "one possibility is for PICA Archangels... stack of PICAs....Its for damn sure Chihiro and Schuhler had that capability after Langhornes death... super human Archangels leading their armies in the field... No, if they had been willing to go the PICA route, then when Nimue Alban woke up in a PICA here on Safehold, her entire mission would have been flat out impossible instead of being damned near impossible".
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:36 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Hamilcar was Shan-Weis HQ for the terraforming effort. Given that she and hers were not too certain about Langhorne and co, she could have made sure that the information was removed (or hidden) from the main memory banks of the Hamilcar, just to keep it out of Langhorne's hands. Recall that she was only able to extract OWL as a computing complex, so the other information may be stored elsewhere on Safehold, or lost.

DMcCunney wrote:A good point, and possible. But it presents the same challenges Shan Wei and Kau Yung faced in setting up Nimue's Cave. Hamilcar was also Langhorne's command ship. Owl didn't come from Hamilcar - it was a tactical computer installed in one of the Operation Ark escorts, and removed and diverted by Kau Yung before that ship was dropped into the local sun. Shan Wei and Kau Yung had to do plain and fancy fiddling to preserve and stash away on Safehold what they did save, to prevent their efforts from being noticed. (And deciding what needed to be deleted would be an even bigger quandary. Advanced knowledge can always be used in manners not thought of by those who created it, including stuff you are correct in assuming you need.)

Hamilcar was originally intended for disposal too, but there is TextEv that Chihiro was already considering retaining it before Armageddon Reef. The OBS was constructed there and deployed by Angels loyal to Chihiro, and the servitors used in the War Against the Fallen were constructed there, and returned there after the conclusion of the War.

While it's possible Shan Wei (or more likely Proctor), might have discretely deleted stuff from Hamilcar's databases to keep it out of Langhorne's hands, doing so without somebody noticing and saying "Wait a minute!" would have been a non-trivial exercise.

My original assumption stands - Chihiro and co. did not build last generation PICAs during the War Against the Fallen because they couldn't - the plans didn't exist. Had they been able to, they likely wouldn't have needed the Seijins. (And had they been able to, Chihiro would have been delighted to upload his personality into a PICA, and rule Safehold in an immortal body. I asked RFC at a con whether Chihiro might have recorded his personality as death approached and uploaded it to a PICA. He said "If he could do that, Chihiro wouldn't have waited!" And he'd have a cover story. His shiny new immortal body was a penance. He failed to stop Shan Wei, so was sentenced to remain on Safehold guiding it, while his fellow angels and Archangels returned to Heaven to be with God.)

I personally don't think those plans were included in what was sent with Operation Ark to begin with. That would have focused on "We are sending out a last ditch colony fleet to avoid the Gbaba, go far away, and set up a world where a remnant of humanity will still exist. What information will be needed for that effort to insure a colony can be planted and survive?"

Various stuff wouldn't have been included because anything discovered can be rediscovered, and the folks on Safehold could eventually do so if they discovered a need for the knowledge.
______
Dennis

Hamilcar only becomes Langhorne's flag ship after he arrives witht he colonists - He was with the main fleet hiding out in deep space until the terraforming was done - reprogramming the colonists among other things - Shan Wei had 75 years to set things up on Hamilcar the way she wanted before Langhorne arrives, and remember - she had Proctor - the computer genius who wa sable to hack Merlin's software, available to clean up any traces. Given that Langhorne and the others of his party were not computer heavies, the chances are pretty good that they could get away with it.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Has someone fiddled with the temple AI?
Post by mhicks   » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:28 pm

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It could be that the PICA tech was in the private sector and it seemed it was for the wealthy as a "toy" or in manufacturing areas that were again well to do financially and could afford to build them vs a military budget getting things done by the cheapest bidder. So if there was a data base out there with all the knowledge of the Terran Federation and all the patens ever made... the military would not have access to it. Yes Operation Arc was humanities final "Hail Marry" but they may have forgotten to add all their eggs into this basket. Like I said earlier PICAs were for the very rich and so the company that made them wanted the money for the hard work that went into them. They would not have given the instructions up just for the sake of humanity. Even with total oblivion facing them, they were holding out for their pound of flesh.

I would say they probably downloaded all the internet information and so they would have access to limitless porn :lol: , but not things with exclusive rights by rich corporations with politicians in their pockets.
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