A question of money

One question that puzzled me; how exactly before the Jihad, Nahrmahn and Hektor managed to out-bribe the Charis in Council of Vicars? It was explicitly stated, that Charis is MUCH richer than Emerald, and quite richer than Corisand. So how exactly Nahrmahn and Hektor could "shovel a lot more gold in a lot more pockets in Zion" (c) than Haarahld?

I could hardly assume that Haarahld - being a member of the Bortherhood - considered bribing the "God's servant" as especially immoral. And at very least, he could stall for time, paying to to slow down any Group of Four plans (for "lost orders", excessive bureaucracy stupidity, ect.).

Dilandu wrote:One question that puzzled me; how exactly before the Jihad, Nahrmahn and Hektor managed to out-bribe the Charis in Council of Vicars? It was explicitly stated, that Charis is MUCH richer than Emerald, and quite richer than Corisand. So how exactly Nahrmahn and Hektor could "shovel a lot more gold in a lot more pockets in Zion" (c) than Haarahld?

I could hardly assume that Haarahld - being a member of the Bortherhood - considered bribing the "God's servant" as especially immoral. And at very least, he could stall for time, paying to to slow down any Group of Four plans (for "lost orders", excessive bureaucracy stupidity, ect.).

In terms of practicality, it is odd that he would not have done that. It seems to me that the King was of sufficient character never to have engaged in the struggle in that way.

wingfield wrote:In terms of practicality, it is odd that he would not have done that. It seems to me that the King was of sufficient character never to have engaged in the struggle in that way.

Which is actually... strange, because it was an effective and bloodless way to save Charisians from the war, or at least push it further to future.

Actually, it seems that there were two major mistakes on Ahrmahk's side, that led to their situation:

A - too little bribes to Zion

B - the creation of "Royal College" BEFORE Charis became big & powerful enough to be allowed such frivolities.

If they avoided those mistakes, they would in a century or a bit more became the great power comparable to the continental ones, and MUCH less "inviting target". Seems that under Circle's influence they pushed "too far, too soon". And, of course, they forgot the bribes...

I suspect the bribe takers weren't honest. Recall archbishop Erayk of Charis was surprised when he realized the entire Church was aimed against Charis. That the maneuvering he participated was not the usual Zion politics he was anticipating. I suspect that no wanted Haraald's money because Clyntahn discouraged anyone speaking in favor of Charis.

Not sure if the College was a step too far or Clyntahn's justifying his prejudice. Not just justifying prejudice, but also beginning his play to further establish the primacy of the inquisition. I suspect he began to plan that since gaining the office.

Dilandu wrote:

wingfield wrote:In terms of practicality, it is odd that he would not have done that. It seems to me that the King was of sufficient character never to have engaged in the struggle in that way.

Which is actually... strange, because it was an effective and bloodless way to save Charisians from the war, or at least push it further to future.

Actually, it seems that there were two major mistakes on Ahrmahk's side, that led to their situation:

A - too little bribes to Zion

B - the creation of "Royal College" BEFORE Charis became big & powerful enough to be allowed such frivolities.

If they avoided those mistakes, they would in a century or a bit more became the great power comparable to the continental ones, and MUCH less "inviting target". Seems that under Circle's influence they pushed "too far, too soon". And, of course, they forgot the bribes...

PeterZ wrote:
Not sure if the College was a step too far or Clyntahn's justifying his prejudice. Not just justifying prejudice, but also beginning his play to further establish the primacy of the inquisition. I suspect he began to plan that since gaining the office.

Well, the College was clearly a reason why Charis, not Corisand became a target. Hektor even lampshades this in first book - that Corisandian orthodoxy was as much at question as Charisian, but College was a big argument against the Charis. Without it, Clyntahn would have MUCH more troubles trying to push his agenda (and if Charis put enough gold in other peoples pockets, Clyntahn would probably decide that Corisand is just as good).

Some side comments in the books gave me the impression that bribery is illegal in Charis. Well, it's probably illegal most places, but if those laws are actually being enforced in Charis then the Ahrmakhs could only have bribed with money no one else knew about or had oversight over -- and no one knew about Silverlode until long after bribes would have done any good.

Meanwhile, Hektor (definitely) and Nahrmahn (most likely) had tighter control over their courts, and any anti-bribery laws on the books could easily have been interpreted as "... except when the Prince is doing it".

The outcome of this would be that Charis might have a larger total income, but much less money available for paying bribes (probably only the privy purse/Haarahld's personal income), while Emerald and Corisande with lower incomes could tap as much of it as needed to bribe vicars.

Julia Minor wrote:Some side comments in the books gave me the impression that bribery is illegal in Charis. Well, it's probably illegal most places, but if those laws are actually being enforced in Charis then the Ahrmakhs could only have bribed with money no one else knew about or had oversight over -- and no one knew about Silverlode until long after bribes would have done any good.

With all respect, but spying was probably also illegal in Charis. But they still have an excellent spy service, and I really doubt that Charisian spies manages to work without bribing quite a lot of peoples. And, I really doubt that Ahrmakhs have such little control over their treasury that they could not find money for bribes in Zion. After all, they quite successfully used their money to fund the secret military projects in OAR - obviously, they do NOT make those spending a matter of a public debate.

I think that the truth is that many of the potential 'bribees' (is that a word) simply didn't want to be seen to be associated with these dangerously innovative Charisians

Dilandu wrote:

Julia Minor wrote:Some side comments in the books gave me the impression that bribery is illegal in Charis. Well, it's probably illegal most places, but if those laws are actually being enforced in Charis then the Ahrmakhs could only have bribed with money no one else knew about or had oversight over -- and no one knew about Silverlode until long after bribes would have done any good.

With all respect, but spying was probably also illegal in Charis. But they still have an excellent spy service, and I really doubt that Charisian spies manages to work without bribing quite a lot of peoples. And, I really doubt that Ahrmakhs have such little control over their treasury that they could not find money for bribes in Zion. After all, they quite successfully used their money to fund the secret military projects in OAR - obviously, they do NOT make those spending a matter of a public debate.

Spying against Charis was undoubtedly illegal, but I doubt that spying for Charis was. Well, as far as Charis was concerned. Other countries might have other ideas.

But in UK law bribery is illegal whether it takes place in the UK or by a UK company in another country. Or by a foreign company in another country if the bribery can be shown to benefit a UK subsidiary.

If Charis has similarly strict laws, the Ahrmakhs might have decided that the political outcome of the Church being able to point to their dynasty breaking their own laws was worse than losing out on cases decided by bribery.

But I suspect that the real explanation is that, even at the start of the book, things had reached a point where nobody but an idealistic idiot would be seen to be on the side of the Ahrmakh dynasty. Fat bribe or not, they were so clearly on the way out that it wasn't worth it.

And idealistic idiots, of course, don't take bribes anyway.

Julia Minor wrote:Some side comments in the books gave me the impression that bribery is illegal in Charis. Well, it's probably illegal most places, but if those laws are actually being enforced in Charis then the Ahrmakhs could only have bribed with money no one else knew about or had oversight over -- and no one knew about Silverlode until long after bribes would have done any good.

Dilandu wrote:
With all respect, but spying was probably also illegal in Charis. But they still have an excellent spy service, and I really doubt that Charisian spies manages to work without bribing quite a lot of peoples. And, I really doubt that Ahrmakhs have such little control over their treasury that they could not find money for bribes in Zion. After all, they quite successfully used their money to fund the secret military projects in OAR - obviously, they do NOT make those spending a matter of a public debate.

Bluesqueak wrote:
Spying against Charis was undoubtedly illegal, but I doubt that spying for Charis was. Well, as far as Charis was concerned. Other countries might have other ideas.

But in UK law bribery is illegal whether it takes place in the UK or by a UK company in another country. Or by a foreign company in another country if the bribery can be shown to benefit a UK subsidiary.

If Charis has similarly strict laws, the Ahrmakhs might have decided that the political outcome of the Church being able to point to their dynasty breaking their own laws was worse than losing out on cases decided by bribery.

But I suspect that the real explanation is that, even at the start of the book, things had reached a point where nobody but an idealistic idiot would be seen to be on the side of the Ahrmakh dynasty. Fat bribe or not, they were so clearly on the way out that it wasn't worth it.

And idealistic idiots, of course, don't take bribes anyway.

Yup. I would add that Charisian wealth more than the College made it a target. Charis was not indebted to the CoGA. They were prosperous enough to offer their own assistance packages to their neighbors, if left to their own devices. So, with or without the College, Clyntahn was going to target Charis. Creating some sort of justification is just a matter of writing the script for Hektor. Once Hektor et al breaks Haraald's navy and burns down Telesburg, the CoGA asserts direct rule over the conquered Charis.