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Dirigibles as gunships?

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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:35 am

Dilandu
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SilverbladeTE wrote:
Adding small, rotatable thrusters to airships would make them more manoeuverable which would help a great deal.


Er... what?
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:28 am

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Dilandu wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:
Adding small, rotatable thrusters to airships would make them more manoeuverable which would help a great deal.


Er... what?


Small, auxiliary propellers
They or engine, can be rotated to provide thrust in directions other than just ahead/reverse

As in what many large ships now have and some lighter than aircraft use today
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:06 am

Dilandu
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

SilverbladeTE wrote:
Small, auxiliary propellers
They or engine, can be rotated to provide thrust in directions other than just ahead/reverse

As in what many large ships now have and some lighter than aircraft use today


You realize that on Safehold you could not use electric control system for such auxiliary drives? And on manual they would be... basically, worse than useless, because crew simply would not be able to coordinate their work well enough to such precise maneuvers?
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:01 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:
Small, auxiliary propellers
They or engine, can be rotated to provide thrust in directions other than just ahead/reverse

As in what many large ships now have and some lighter than aircraft use today


You realize that on Safehold you could not use electric control system for such auxiliary drives? And on manual they would be... basically, worse than useless, because crew simply would not be able to coordinate their work well enough to such precise maneuvers?


I think you're over thinking things ;)
A Russian engineer can't imagine ingenuity, practical engineering and training helping the manoeuvrability of an airship without needing electronics?! Tsk tsk! ;)

Remember, thrusters like that have far less power than main engines and help with stability, not overpower things by brute force.
"Genteling" movement is the goal
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:30 pm

Dilandu
Admiral

Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

SilverbladeTE wrote:
I think you're over thinking things ;)
A Russian engineer can't imagine ingenuity, practical engineering and training helping the manoeuvrability of an airship without needing electronics?! Tsk tsk! ;)


Nah. Some things are either impossible or at least impractical.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:34 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:In Through Fiery Trials, Charis begins testing "zeppelin bombing".
Now, here's a thought:

1) Rigid airships can carry very large cargoes indeed.

2) They are relatively slow but stable platforms.

3) When they drop bombs, they violently rise from loss of mass and have to vent a lot of gas which is thus, dangerous.
Effectively they rise up through a plume of their own gas and stress the hull, note hydrogen isn't just flammable, it chemically damages metal in the hull it encounters.

So, why not use some of them as gunships like a lower tech AC-130 Spectre?
Because they aren't needed?

I was bemused by the trial recounted in TFT using an airship as a bomber against naval targets. Admiral Ahbaht is skeptical about the exercise. He considers that it might be possible to use an airship in that sort of combat role, but how practical it will be operationally is another matter. Assuming you can reliably hit a moving target like a naval vessel from an airship, it may work the first couple of times you try it, but the enemy will learn quickly, do its best to maneuver to spoil a bomber's aim, and work on ship mounted guns that can elevate enough to engage an airship and fire rapidly enough to be effective AA defenses.

Ahbaht mentioned the increasingly large bombs being developed, like a 2,000 pound monster. I wanted to be there and say "This isn't a tactical weapon, it's a strategic one. Instead of a smaller airship coming in low and trying to bomb ships, imagine a bigger one flying higher and much harder to shoot down, bombing stationary targets on land. I think a few 2,000 pound aerobombs dropped on something like Emperor Mahrys's palace in Desnair the City, or Emperor Zhyou-zhwo's palace in Yu-kwau in South Harchong while they were in them might have a salutary effect on conflicts with the most like opponents for Charis in the future." :P

With airships as spotters for the gun dog's artillery, rockets, and mortars, the need for something like a gunship drops.
______
Dennis
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:55 am

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Dilandu wrote:Nah, it wouldn't work like that except for a VERY low-flying target. Rockets are rather inaccurate weapon, and in Safehold conditions it is hard to coordinate a salvo (since there are no electric firing system).


Actually, it's easy so long as the launchers are close together. There are fuses that burn all but instantly. Use them to light off your rockets, just make sure to spread them out or you'll see a lot of fratricide.
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:59 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
Because they aren't needed?

I was bemused by the trial recounted in TFT using an airship as a bomber against naval targets. Admiral Ahbaht is skeptical about the exercise. He considers that it might be possible to use an airship in that sort of combat role, but how practical it will be operationally is another matter. Assuming you can reliably hit a moving target like a naval vessel from an airship, it may work the first couple of times you try it, but the enemy will learn quickly, do its best to maneuver to spoil a bomber's aim, and work on ship mounted guns that can elevate enough to engage an airship and fire rapidly enough to be effective AA defenses.

Ahbaht mentioned the increasingly large bombs being developed, like a 2,000 pound monster. I wanted to be there and say "This isn't a tactical weapon, it's a strategic one. Instead of a smaller airship coming in low and trying to bomb ships, imagine a bigger one flying higher and much harder to shoot down, bombing stationary targets on land. I think a few 2,000 pound aerobombs dropped on something like Emperor Mahrys's palace in Desnair the City, or Emperor Zhyou-zhwo's palace in Yu-kwau in South Harchong while they were in them might have a salutary effect on conflicts with the most like opponents for Charis in the future." :P

With airships as spotters for the gun dog's artillery, rockets, and mortars, the need for something like a gunship drops.
______
Dennis



1) refusal to have alternatives is extremely...unwise in a survival situation.

One of my sbsolute furious hates is how the R.A.F. and Air Ministry top brass denied the British dive bombers,
Ground attack aircraft,
Almost managed to prevent the Spitfire's adoption,
fought to keep fighter numbers very low,
didn't update and worked against upgrading weapon systems, denied their useless training etc meant they couldn't FIND most enemy cities never mind effectively bomb them,
and screwed the Fleet Air Arm hard :(

That utter criminal arrogant stupidity left the British Commonwealth unable to hammer the Germans in 1940 like they could EASILY have done...also.add in the similar though even more criminal actions of French air force top brass who kept the great majority of their aircraft out of action oddly enough.

Dive bombers at that time were the ONLY ones that could actually hit anything reliably.
Yes, vulnerable to fighters, but when protected as the Luftwaffe proved, incredibly effective.
Smashing bridges, panzer spearheads and especially their weak spot, the supply columns, would have wrecked the "shoestring" Rommel etc relied on.

My point being:
Never limit yourself in war, war is chaos, having an unusual resource can make great difference :)
Basing your strategy only on heavy bombers is dangerously dumb, history has proven that.
Sorry, family history, makes it more painful :/

2)
Airships are better bombers in general than heavier than air for accuracy. They also, crucially have extreme endurance which is overlooked for its utility as loitering over the battlefield is one of prime benefits of say, an A-10 over a supersonic jet.
Charisian airships can loiter all day and respond and in a world without radio that would be incredibly important, as no fast response from distant airfields is possible on Safehold.

Loiter time and cargo space makes them great for ground attack vs enemy troops or supplies in the open or light defences.

However napalm is best toss bombed by high speed craft to spread it out to best effect. Maybe create a napalm glide bomb, winged container for airships so they hit at a low angle?
Cluster bombs imperil civilians for decades after but grenades already in existence could easily be adapted for.such use.
So there are some issues to their use. But in general are better than HE bombs against troop and supplies likely on Safehold and logistic interdiction, as the Canal Raid showed, is more useful than simple heavy bombardment.
Also, more moral...I don't want Charis to be fire bombing South Harchong cities for example.


3) with loiter time and huge cargo space, an airship gunship could reach and apply fire power in many useful ways.
"Rediscovering" H&K 40mm grenade launcher and Bofors you'd have perfect weapons
Slow air speed means grenade launchers projectiles won't be unbalanced unlike a jet. Rebounding fuses would improve their effect.
It doesn't take much to injure Humans or damage supplies, you want "lots of a.little"
An airship with six or more grenade launchers and 2 Bofors could wreck havoc and for a long time.
Night fighting? Use flare and incendiary shells with the grenade launchers.

4) only Charis has smokeless powder and good.optics, making antiaircraft weapons less effective for their lack.
Gunpowder shells are.of course, excellent for destroying hydrogen airships.
Airships are excellent observation platforms to spot AA weapons, unlike high speed aircraft.
"Hit them where they ain't!"
Lots of AA guns or.rockets? Go elsewhere! :)


5) rockets are very very sensitive to being hit by explosive or incendiary shells....
A 40mm Bofor has a hell of a range from an airship.
Also as suggested, glide bombs with fins could extend bomb ranges

6) the Praigyr motors etc should mean Charisian airships are.relatively quiet.
This means raiding/marauding missions could be surprisingly effective on the surprisee :lol:
Anyone considered Charisian paratroopers with gunships for raids, hm? :twisted:
Avoid Arnheim but Charisian Red Devils...mmm!

7)
One of them best uses for airships might not be bombing but "gardening"
Dropping a few hundred tons of naval mines in the night, say the Harchong Narrows in front of a South Harchong armada...would be vastly more effective and safer.than combat bombing.
It strains airships dropping heavy loads quickly.
Slower cargo reduction is safer and airships would be perfect mine layers.
Also in Safehold Charis, with TNT.etc explosives vs non-dreadnaught ships, could use smaller and thus more, mines.


Hm? :)
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:12 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:<...> (Much elided.)

Also in Safehold Charis, with TNT.etc explosives vs non-dreadnaught ships, could use smaller and thus more, mines.


Hm? :)

Here we go again. I recall having this sort of discussion with you over the desirability of using naval monitors. Yes, they could do what you say, but why bother?

So let's step back and look at the big geopolitical picture. Who do you think Charis might have to fight that would require what you suggest, and when do you think it might occur?

I'm waiting...
______
Dennis
Who thinks there are limits to how far you can meaningfully apply old Earth history to events on Safehold. Some situations simply aren't comparable.
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Re: Dirigibles as gunships?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:13 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
Here we go again. I recall having this sort of discussion with you over the desirability of using naval monitors. Yes, they could do what you say, but why bother?

So let's step back and look at the big geopolitical picture. Who do you think Charis might have to fight that would require what you suggest, and when do you think it might occur?

I'm waiting...
______
Dennis
Who thinks there are limits to how far you can meaningfully apply old Earth history to events on Safehold. Some situations simply aren't comparable.



TFT took places over what was it, 20 years?
So, obviously, the next arc is going to take place over some time period when other nations' tech will have advanced.
It may reach battle 15 or more years after TFT ends

Waisu and Maris' hate for Charis burns hugely and while in some ways they are stupid because of their culture/backgrounds warping their outlooks, ...none of them are dumb and are working hard to catch up on Charis military tech, see the railroads.
How long until they have armourclad warships?

Do you really think RunsforCelery, of all writers, will give us a fight between Charis with dreadnaught class battleships vs galleons?! :roll:
Of course not!
One way or another Charis and its allies are going to be in a brutal fight.

Remember , Merlin needs tech to spread, during the prior war two extremely effective groups of innovators spring up in the enemy camp, and more acceptance and understanding of possibilities exists now.
Thus, as we know, despite issues, South Harchong and Desnair will raise up deadly militaries...probably with much of a "fascist" Siddarmark, and possibly, a hard line schism group of the Church.
And...we don't known if Chihiro left his own back up plan and what that might be!
The Schueler revelation warns Chihiro may possibly not be finished with his harm. What the Good Guys may do, so may the bad.

Planning in complacency results in complete screw ups like the start of WW2 was for the British French and Americans.
Nimue is a lot.more wary than that, lessons of history and all that ;)
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