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Samsons Land....

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:12 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:With Pei Shan-Wei's having a way of naming things in an obtuse but meaningful manner....
What if Samsons Land refers to "bringing down the Temple"?


If Pei Shan-Wei named Samson's Land, she named it before the colonists arrived ... so how did she know there would be a Temple that needed bringing down?

Hiding the ore deposits on Silverlode could be justified as contingency planning. Money is always useful; if the Pei faction was right about Langhorne playing fast and loose with the mission parameters, they probably intended to make sure one of "their" colonists discovered the ore, and if they were wrong "oops, this got left out of the report, sorry".


Very correct - the Temple was not constructed until AFTER the death of Langhorn- and thus Pei Shan-Wei. Unless it was already planned in some fashion (but not built "YET" - unlikely), Shan-Wei would have no knowledge of the building to plan against it.
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:09 am

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Dilandu wrote:
thanatos wrote:
Then there's the tactic of hiding things in plain sight, like Silverlode Island (Ostensibly due to its silvery sands). So it's possible she hid something there, always assuming that Samson's Land was named by her and not by someone in the command crew.


Problem is, that A - Langhorne & his crew hardly were ordinary men & women. To be even considered as possible candidates to lead the Ark colony, they must be exceptionally bright and capable (and come on, their plan may be immoral and megalomaniac, but it was fantastically brilliant - and worked for a thousand years!).

B - they have not only their brains, but the AI's too. Computers are very good in detecting not obvious analogues.

Indeed, it's possible Langhorne and Bedard attacked when they did because they suspected she had them.


I really doubt that it would be a reason for such drastic actions, really. Unless they grossly overestimated the actual number of "rememberers" in Shan-Wei sleeve.

Hm... maybe THIS was Chichiro's lie? He may exaggerate the scale of Shan-Wei efforts - for example, he could alter cargo manifests so it would looks like Shan-Wei stole not three NEAT machines, but, say, three hundred.

It may explain why Langhorne decided to destroy the whole continent. If Chichiro persuaded him, that Shan-Wei have a whole army of re-educated colonists hidden in plain view around Alexandria - an army, programmed to overthrew the Administration and took over Safehold at her command - then Langhorne may really decide that he have no other choice but to strike indiscriminately.

P.S. And also, it may explain the paradox of one surviving settlement. Merlin/Nimue assumed that it was pre-planned action to have some "witnesses" alive for the Church version of history. But actually, it may be the Langhorne last-minute doubt: spare the sample of population, so they could be tested, and if the number of re-educated colonists was really as great as Chichiro claimed, then at least some of them would demonstrate abnormal behavior.


Yeah I suspect Chihiro set the WHOLE cycle of violence and brutality off!
Do we know for sure Langhorne authorized the kinetic strike?
May have been Chihiro? Or as you say, he conspired to drive Langhorne and Bedard's paranoia over a threshold.
And whispering in Kau-Yung's ear and ensuring he got through security with a vest pocket nuke....?
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Julia Minor   » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:46 am

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Theemile wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:
If Pei Shan-Wei named Samson's Land, she named it before the colonists arrived ... so how did she know there would be a Temple that needed bringing down?


Very correct - the Temple was not constructed until AFTER the death of Langhorn- and thus Pei Shan-Wei. Unless it was already planned in some fashion (but not built "YET" - unlikely), Shan-Wei would have no knowledge of the building to plan against it.


Sorry, poor phrasing on my part. Yes, the physical Temple wasn't built until after (as I recall) the end of the War Against The Fallen. The Church it was built to serve, though, was programmed into the colonists before they ever landed on Safehold. Some characters in the novels use "Temple" to refer to the CoGA, that's how I was using it.

Tangent: I'm almost certain Langhorne and Company always intended to build some sort of physical temple. They knew they weren't immortal, which meant they knew at some point the CoGA would end up under the direct supervision of people who weren't part of the command staff. A "final gift" in the form of a miraculous temple shaped by the Archangels' own will and command would help ease the transition from direct Archangelic rule to the rule of the vicars.
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:17 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:And whispering in Kau-Yung's ear and ensuring he got through security with a vest pocket nuke....?


Actually, quite possible, because for some reason Chichiro - basically the second in administration hierarchy - was NOT presented (and again, Kau-Yung mentioned that someone else also knew at least something about Nimue PICA - someone who was "also invited" to Langhorne).
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dauntless   » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:23 am

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Julia Minor wrote:Tangent: I'm almost certain Langhorne and Company always intended to build some sort of physical temple. They knew they weren't immortal, which meant they knew at some point the CoGA would end up under the direct supervision of people who weren't part of the command staff. A "final gift" in the form of a miraculous temple shaped by the Archangels' own will and command would help ease the transition from direct Archangelic rule to the rule of the vicars.


something was no doubt planned I agree but I don't think langhorne was planning on something that would be bigger and tougher then a planetary defence centre.

even to langhorne that would probably have seemed grossly over the top.
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Peter2   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:40 am

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Julia Minor wrote:
[snip]

Sorry, poor phrasing on my part. Yes, the physical Temple wasn't built until after (as I recall) the end of the War Against The Fallen. The Church it was built to serve, though, was programmed into the colonists before they ever landed on Safehold. Some characters in the novels use "Temple" to refer to the CoGA, that's how I was using it.

Tangent: I'm almost certain Langhorne and Company always intended to build some sort of physical temple. They knew they weren't immortal, which meant they knew at some point the CoGA would end up under the direct supervision of people who weren't part of the command staff. A "final gift" in the form of a miraculous temple shaped by the Archangels' own will and command would help ease the transition from direct Archangelic rule to the rule of the vicars.


A thought occurred to me. The temple as described in TFT was built of materials which made it pretty well impregnable, so how did the old hierarchy arrange for the escape tunnel that Clyntahn used? I can think of 3 possibilities:–
(1) the start of the tunnel (or at least a weakness which could be exploited) was built into the original plans,
(2) the old hierarchy retained the capability of modifying the temple's structure, or
(3) the planners either overlooked the temple's underground vulnerability or assumed it didn't matter.

Or can anybody think of any further alternatives?
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:02 am

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Peter2 wrote:(1) the start of the tunnel (or at least a weakness which could be exploited) was built into the original plans,
(2) the old hierarchy retained the capability of modifying the temple's structure, or
(3) the planners either overlooked the temple's underground vulnerability or assumed it didn't matter.

Or can anybody think of any further alternatives?


(4) The tunnel may be non-accessible from outside. For example, it may be blocked by armoplast blast door, which opened only when the inner door has been opened. Pretty much non-accessible for pre-atomic civilization.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Samsons Land....
Post by Magistos   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:24 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Peter2 wrote:(1) the start of the tunnel (or at least a weakness which could be exploited) was built into the original plans,
(2) the old hierarchy retained the capability of modifying the temple's structure, or
(3) the planners either overlooked the temple's underground vulnerability or assumed it didn't matter.

Or can anybody think of any further alternatives?


(4) The tunnel may be non-accessible from outside. For example, it may be blocked by armoplast blast door, which opened only when the inner door has been opened. Pretty much non-accessible for pre-atomic civilization.


This is my assumption as well - and possibly that it is a one-way door.
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