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Submarines without electricity?

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Submarines without electricity?
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:45 pm

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Just wondering if the Charisans could ever build submarines without electrical power that would be actually useful?

Be pretty darn difficult and lose a lot of range/speed underwater, but it might be possible using ignition free diesels for surface running and compressors, and compressed air for underwater?
Snorkels....

Even if they couldn't make torpedoes, short range compresed air ones do work, but deck guns or hull mounts like Surcouf might make it worthwhile?
Or small subs like the X-Craft to drop massive explosive.charges....or to deliver clandestine forces in enemy waters for raids?
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:59 am

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In short: perfectly possible. There were plenty of non-electric solutions in XIX century:

* Stored compressed air
* Air-independent steam engine (using chemical reaction to produce heat)
* Thermal accumulator, like large block of insulated sodium, which is pre-haeted on surface and could hold heat for a long time.

Of course, the underwater range wouldn't be great, but sufficient for actions.

P.S. Problem is, Chris have no reasons to invest in subs or torpedoes. They are weapons that undermine the power of classic battlefleets, allowing the weaker side to harm the stronger one disproportionally.
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:51 pm

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No subs, but I do think that South Harchong develops the idea of a self propelled torpedo. Desnair will need to manufacture them and both need to steal the idea of small fast boats rom Dohlar. I sure hope that Thirsk's R&D Lt. Comes up with an IC engine. That seems to be a direct extension of his prop galley design. The crank shaft just needs to be driven by pistons instead of humans.

Steam engines are powered by boilers. If he considers each piston/rower as a separate source of power just like his crank galley, he can extrapolate from other sources of explosions. Having an IC driven PT boat armed with torpedoes will dominate every other navy but Charis'.

If Dohlar comes up with the IC engine and Desnair and Harchong come up with a torpedo, we have the Jeune Ecole all over again.
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by phillies   » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:37 pm

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Absolutely, steam power on the surface, and various alternatives to diesel electric, e.g. hydrogen peroxide, whilst submerged.

Readers who do not believe in steam powered submarines should research the British K class submarine, preferably from a safe distance.
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Silverwall   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:26 pm

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What is the tactical function of a proscriptions compliant submarine?

I ask this as the value of Subs historically against warships has been... Limited to say the least.

Up until late WW2 the value of subs was in commerce destruction, landing commandos and Reconisance pickets with Radios.

The last of these roles is out without electricity so that leaves commerce destruction and commando landing as the main reason to build them.

Sadly coast defence is far better done by cheaper and safer mine barrages which is also well within the capabilities of both sides
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:05 am

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Silverwall wrote:What is the tactical function of a proscriptions compliant submarine?



Are you kidding me? Look at the Safehold map. The Safehold bodies of sea are usually narrow, there are very few comparable to Earth oceans. Even the coastal submarine would be considered "sea-going" here.

ask this as the value of Subs historically against warships has been... Limited to say the least.


...Look for the list of major warships, sunk and damaged by submarines in World War I. At leas ten battleships were sunk, along with eight armored cruisers. Significantly more were damaged at some point of the war.

Now, add that there is no radio on Safehold (no way for attacked ship to tell where she was attacked), no effective acoustic (no means to find submerged submarine)...
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:45 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
...Look for the list of major warships, sunk and damaged by submarines in World War I. At leas ten battleships were sunk, along with eight armored cruisers. Significantly more were damaged at some point of the war.

Now, add that there is no radio on Safehold (no way for attacked ship to tell where she was attacked), no effective acoustic (no means to find submerged submarine)...



The only US heavy warship lost in WWI was the Protected Cruiser San Diego - it was recently determined to have been lost to Submarine Action just off the US coast near New York. (So close they tried a high speed run to beach the ship before it sank.)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:49 pm

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Theemile wrote:
The only US heavy warship lost in WWI was the Protected Cruiser San Diego - it was recently determined to have been lost to Submarine Action just off the US coast near New York. (So close they tried a high speed run to beach the ship before it sank.)


...Where exactly I was talking about ONLY US warships? There were other major navies involved, you know. British and French navies suffered much heavier losses during the war.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:03 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Theemile wrote:
The only US heavy warship lost in WWI was the Protected Cruiser San Diego - it was recently determined to have been lost to Submarine Action just off the US coast near New York. (So close they tried a high speed run to beach the ship before it sank.)


...Where exactly I was talking about ONLY US warships? There were other major navies involved, you know. British and French navies suffered much heavier losses during the war.



I didn't intend to imply that you did. I was try to add credence to your point of the lethality of early Subs and add Protected cruisers to your list - becuase the only US heavy loss was to a sub. I'm sorry it came off as a denial of your point.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Submarines without electricity?
Post by doug941   » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:47 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Dilandu wrote:
...Look for the list of major warships, sunk and damaged by submarines in World War I. At leas ten battleships were sunk, along with eight armored cruisers. Significantly more were damaged at some point of the war.

Now, add that there is no radio on Safehold (no way for attacked ship to tell where she was attacked), no effective acoustic (no means to find submerged submarine)...



The only US heavy warship lost in WWI was the Protected Cruiser San Diego - it was recently determined to have been lost to Submarine Action just off the US coast near New York. (So close they tried a high speed run to beach the ship before it sank.)



Close. The San Diego was member of the Pennsylvania class ARMORED cruisers. The actual cause of her sinking is still a toss-up between a torpedo or a mine.
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