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Charisian Urban Development

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Charisian Urban Development
Post by Erls   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:01 am

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So, I got to thinking.. Charis could, with existing technology, turn their capital cities (Both Imperial and Kingdom) into technology demonstrators. While at the same time introducing the modern urban city and providing a well-designed transportation network. I describe what I mean below.

Using the high quality steel that Duke Delthak is famous for, Charis can introduce the skyscraper to Safehold. Definitely not the super-tall structures we see today, but certainly along the lines of early 20th century Earth. Think a couple of towers around 20-30 stories, a couple around 40-50, and then a Chrysler Building or Empire State Building. Using steam-powered vertical "railroads" (elevators), the buildings would be fully accessible as well. Without electricity, each elevator could have a "conductor" who would manually operate the controls that would control the steam release and thus whether the elevator moved up or down. These towers could become the home offices of shipping lines, manufacturers, ship-builders, financiers, and legal professionals. And, of course, some could be condos or apartments.

Charis could go a step beyond just building the towers, and consciously build them away (by at least a mile) from the dockyards and palace/government/cathedral complexes in each city. Why?

Well, because building them a mile or more apart from the two most important (current) parts of a Charisian city, Charis could introduce the Subway to Safehold. With oil powered locomotives, the smoke problem of tunnels is gone. Thus, Charis could build multiple subway lines connecting the now three (Government/Church, Docks, Downtown Towers) important parts of the city and extend them out into residential districts.

Why?

Well, with the introduction of steam-powered tractors and farm equipment, the production rate of Charisian farmers is going to quickly render half of the agricultural sector unnecessary. By introducing steel-skeleton construction and towers Charis will allow for the rapid construction of housing and work space necessary for everyone moving to urban areas (as seen in our history). The introduction of the subway will offer quality, dependable transportation to the lower and middle classes. In effect, the combination of dense (tall) buildings with mass transit will allow the urban cores to be rebuilt. And rebuilt with the automobile and air-cars in mind. Charis can introduce "odd" zoning requirements (such as width of major streets) that will be perfect for future technology, while also building local parks and providing today's inhabitants with a good quality of life. After all, isn't the secondary goal (behind defeating the OBS and throwing off the proscriptions) to give Charisian citizens a good quality of life?

Also. This would be a great technology demonstrator for both the uses of steel in building and the superiority of oil over coal. No one could build a feasible subway with a coal powered train - the smoke would asphyxiate the riders. Thus, any kingdom that wants to give its citizens the same (the Church, the United Provinces, Dohlar, Silkiah) would desperately want to follow suit. And, any kingdom that wants to defeat Charis would get further, impossible to ignore, evidence as to the benefits of oil and the importance of quality steel.

Finally, on a side note.. It would be pretty darn great if Charis requested permission to build an Embassy in Zion. Far enough away from the Temple that OWL could operate fully, of course. And there have Charis build "The San Remo" building, only one tower is designed after the Chrysler Building and the other after the Empire State Building. One tower would be for the Church of Charis, and the other for the Government of Charis. Or, if that isn't allowed, one for living and one for work (with one tower for Chisholm and one for Charis).

Thoughts?
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:44 am

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Oil powered trains underground would also be a bad idea. Perhaps not AS bad as coal, but plenty bad enough to be worth avoiding.

A variant of cable cars might work, but there's no real reason to put the system underground if you're building outward anyway.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Julia Minor   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:12 am

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Safehold already has elevators -- at least one Siddarmarkian hotel is specifically noted to have them. We don't know how they're powered, so whether we'd need Delthak to have an "inspiration" of how to improve them is an open question.

However, were I on the inner circle I'd vote against building skyscrapers on the grounds that the fire brigade doesn't have the tools to deal with them. The outer shell may be steel and brick, but the insides are going to be flammable. One person on the 10th floor forgetting to blow out a candle (or properly extinguish a gaslight), and the death toll is going to be huge.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:37 am

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Erls wrote:With oil powered locomotives, the smoke problem of tunnels is gone.

Reduced, not gone. Burning fuel in an enclosed space will NEVER be a good idea.

I'm sure they would find references to the Pneumatic Transit system that was built in New York, before electric subways proved simpler and cheaper.

Would they build steam-powered Tunnel Boring Machines?

Julia Minor wrote:However, were I on the inner circle I'd vote against building skyscrapers on the grounds that the fire brigade doesn't have the tools to deal with them.

They don't? How about a sprinkler system, fed from the rooftop water tank? You need the water tank anyway, so just make it bigger.
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At my house, the 'things that go bump in the night' are cats.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Daryl   » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:36 am

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The London Underground used coal steam trains in 1864, but soon switched to coke and low smoke coal. Obviously not perfect but worked with lots of ventilation.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Julia Minor   » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:18 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:However, were I on the inner circle I'd vote against building skyscrapers on the grounds that the fire brigade doesn't have the tools to deal with them.

They don't? How about a sprinkler system, fed from the rooftop water tank? You need the water tank anyway, so just make it bigger.


Not quite what I was thinking of. Modern-day ladder trucks, from everything I've been able to find, max out at around 125 feet. Given that the ladder is the hypotenuse of a triangle (formed by building on fire/the ground/the ladder), it's not actually reaching 125 feet up the side of the building.

Now, in modern construction, firefighters don't try to go up a ladder to the 20th floor of a building; they go up the interior stairs and hook their hoses to the required-by-building-code standpipes. Safeholdian hydraulics are pretty good, but that's probably beyond their capabilities as of book 10. If their firefighters are going to have to fight fires and rescue people from the outside, they need to be able to get at those fires and people, and that means shorter buildings.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:38 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:Now, in modern construction, firefighters don't try to go up a ladder to the 20th floor of a building; they go up the interior stairs and hook their hoses to the required-by-building-code standpipes. Safeholdian hydraulics are pretty good, but that's probably beyond their capabilities as of book 10.

You have to put a water tank at the top of a tall building to provide water for the people inside. That same water tank supplies the firemains. That's how we do it today.

Rescuing people from the outside of a building above the eighth floor or so is too high for us, too. On Safehold, they could pick people off the roof with a blimp if they can't evacuate down the stairs.
———————————
Ninth Doctor: "What's your name?"
Rose: "Rose Tyler."
Doctor: "Nice to meet you, Rose. Run for your life!"
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:30 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:Not quite what I was thinking of. Modern-day ladder trucks, from everything I've been able to find, max out at around 125 feet. Given that the ladder is the hypotenuse of a triangle (formed by building on fire/the ground/the ladder), it's not actually reaching 125 feet up the side of the building.

Now, in modern construction, firefighters don't try to go up a ladder to the 20th floor of a building; they go up the interior stairs and hook their hoses to the required-by-building-code standpipes. Safeholdian hydraulics are pretty good, but that's probably beyond their capabilities as of book 10. If their firefighters are going to have to fight fires and rescue people from the outside, they need to be able to get at those fires and people, and that means shorter buildings.

Standpipes are probably within their capability, since it's established they have water pumps, water tanks/towers and running water in fairly tall buildings in AMF using only windmills. With steel pipes they could probably even manage automatic sprinklers with fusible links to trigger them. Fifteen or twenty stories would probably be the most they could do, but they could do it.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by MADI   » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:22 pm

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This discussion seems to be assuming much taller buildings than are likely. The Home Insurance Building in Chicago was the first steel frame building of this type and was only 10 floors and under 140 feet. Though they did add 2 more floors later.
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Re: Charisian Urban Development
Post by Isilith   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:30 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Julia Minor wrote:Now, in modern construction, firefighters don't try to go up a ladder to the 20th floor of a building; they go up the interior stairs and hook their hoses to the required-by-building-code standpipes. Safeholdian hydraulics are pretty good, but that's probably beyond their capabilities as of book 10.

You have to put a water tank at the top of a tall building to provide water for the people inside. That same water tank supplies the firemains. That's how we do it today.

Rescuing people from the outside of a building above the eighth floor or so is too high for us, too. On Safehold, they could pick people off the roof with a blimp if they can't evacuate down the stairs.
———————————
Ninth Doctor: "What's your name?"
Rose: "Rose Tyler."
Doctor: "Nice to meet you, Rose. Run for your life!"


You want to put a blimp, with flammable hydrogen bags, over a high rise fire. Would you like them to wear their kerosene underwear at the same time? :lol:
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