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St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?

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St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:25 pm

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Wayback at the beginning of HFQ when we read about Nynian telling Merlin about the distraction of Saint Kohdy‘s original tomb. She says it was destroyed by an unrecorded Raukari strike; A “blast of holy fire” in the middle of the night.

We assume she is referring to the original orbital bombardment system. But what if it wasn’t? I can think of at least two other options that wouldn’t require dropping a rock from space. That seems a little much to me for just taking out an isolated monastic community. Both of these options would be easily confused in the minds of a uninformed observer to be like or similar to a Raukari strike: A streak of light followed by a massive explosion.

1. Back in RFC‘s early work, Mutineers Moon, we read about them using a gravity driven kinetic missile strike to take out a terrorist base. The mass missiles were mounted on a fighter platform similar to the recon skimmer. I would assume that such a weapon would also be available to the Terran Federation.

2. A second option that will be available even using today’s technology is called a fuel air emulsion bunker busting bomb. Upon striking it releases a carefully measured amount of fuel mixed as an aerosol with oxygen that upon ignition creates an explosion equal to a low-grade nuclear bomb. That could easily destroy and isolated monastery.

We know that the “lesser angels“ destroyed Kohdy‘s tomb after Chahiro and Schueler had died. They may not have had access to the use of the OBS. But if they wanted to destroy a single building they wouldn’t need the OBS. Therefore the tomb’s distraction need not be authorized by Chihiro or Schueler.

Just a thought....
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm

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PlaysWithBees wrote: We know that the “lesser angels“ destroyed Kohdy‘s tomb after Chahiro and Schueler had died.
Part of the fun here is not having precise timelines.

Exactly when was the original Abbey of the Snows destroyed?

And given the description at the end of TFT of the state of the mortal body interred in his tomb when his soul departed to return to God, how old was Schueler and just when did he die?
They may not have had access to the use of the OBS. But if they wanted to destroy a single building they wouldn’t need the OBS. Therefore the tomb’s distraction need not be authorized by Chihiro or Schueler.

Just a thought....
Granted, they might not have needed the OBS. The Angels at least had aircars and could have dropped a suitable explosive.

But as for authorization, why would they have done it? I don't see one of them deciding to do it for fun because he could. I see it being done on someone else's orders, and the most likely someone is Chihiro. (I really don't think Schueler would have ordered it. Chihiro was the one that would see Kohdy as a threat.)
______
Dennis
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by PMike   » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:26 pm

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Thanks for giving credit for my post on the other thread yesterday, which you quoted over there, where I asked if we know whether the attack on the original SSK Abby was an actual rakurai or a different attack that just looked like the rakurai.
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:22 am

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PMike wrote:Thanks for giving credit for my post on the other thread yesterday, which you quoted over there, where I asked if we know whether the attack on the original SSK Abby was an actual rakurai or a different attack that just looked like the rakurai.


I would have... if I hadn’t already posted this thread almost 90 minutes before...(11:25 am vs 12:58pm). Instead, this is one of those “great minds thinking alike” instances.
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:48 pm

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Well, considering that any kind of aerial bombardment for mind-altered Safeholdian would basically be Rakurai of some sort, it could be just anything. Tactical orbital strike, ballistic missile attack, or just plain old guided bomb, dropped from aircraft.

The most puzzling question is why actually it was needed at all. If some Angel wanted to get rid of the Sisterhood, he could use much less... direct measures (like sending microbots to start a big fire in the Abbey, for example), so it would looks pretty "natural".

P.S. My IMHO - the destruction of the Sisterhood was more or less "rogue" act, performed against the objection of some Archangel (presumably Schueller). After all, it clearly wasn't initially planned. The Temple even allowed Sisterhood to took the body away - while it would be much simpler for Archangels to just claim that "Saint Khody for his faithful service to Archangels was called by Langhorne to join him on Dawn Star".

Instead, they gave his body back, basically admitting that "something gone wrong here". It is hardly characteristic for Chichiro, but seems to be pretty in character for Schueller.

So my IMHO - Khody was murdered by Chichiro, who also wanted to get rid of anyone associated with him. But Schueller objected, and forced Chichiro to step back. Still, Chichiro wasn't actually satisfied, and thus he left some programs and instruction for both Rakurai Array (to destroy the Abbey) and for Temple (to write Khody out of records) - to be activated after Schueller would be out of picture.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:11 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Well, considering that any kind of aerial bombardment for mind-altered Safeholdian would basically be Rakurai of some sort, it could be just anything. Tactical orbital strike, ballistic missile attack, or just plain old guided bomb, dropped from aircraft.

The most puzzling question is why actually it was needed at all. If some Angel wanted to get rid of the Sisterhood, he could use much less... direct measures (like sending microbots to start a big fire in the Abbey, for example), so it would looks pretty "natural".

P.S. My IMHO - the destruction of the Sisterhood was more or less "rogue" act, performed against the objection of some Archangel (presumably Schueller). After all, it clearly wasn't initially planned. The Temple even allowed Sisterhood to took the body away - while it would be much simpler for Archangels to just claim that "Saint Khody for his faithful service to Archangels was called by Langhorne to join him on Dawn Star".

Instead, they gave his body back, basically admitting that "something gone wrong here". It is hardly characteristic for Chichiro, but seems to be pretty in character for Schueller.

So my IMHO - Khody was murdered by Chichiro, who also wanted to get rid of anyone associated with him. But Schueller objected, and forced Chichiro to step back. Still, Chichiro wasn't actually satisfied, and thus he left some programs and instruction for both Rakurai Array (to destroy the Abbey) and for Temple (to write Khody out of records) - to be activated after Schueller would be out of picture.



It could also have been an assault from the Fallen - assuming any existed at the time - But the rationality of doing so escapes me - especially with it being such a secluded, isolated target.

The only reason I can think to strike it would be to erase someone/thing. Since the whole world knows of Seijin Kody, even if most of the official story was been expunged, it can't be to delete his existence. Perhaps to destroy some piece of technology? (What if he was physically augmented, and the Archangels didn't want future pilgrims seeing a Terminator chassis lying in Kody's tomb.)
******
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:57 pm

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Theemile wrote:
It could also have been an assault from the Fallen - assuming any existed at the time - But the rationality of doing so escapes me - especially with it being such a secluded, isolated target. And in such case, the Church would hardly write off the history of Kohdy - on the contrary, it would probably make it even more glorious, claiming that "servants of Shain-Wei are so despicable that they would not let even the bodies of God's servants stay undisturbed".



I doubt that remaining Fallen were involved in it. I did not consider Fallen as "good by definition", but it's just impractical, to waste efforts on attacking secluded abbey far away from any major population enclaves.

Perhaps to destroy some piece of technology? (What if he was physically augmented, and the Archangels didn't want future pilgrims seeing a Terminator chassis lying in Kody's tomb.)


In that case, why they give the body back? And I doubt that any artificial implants would be a problem - the Kohdy was Seijin, after all, so it would be not much wonder if "his bones were turned into blessed metal, so Fallen demonic weapon could not harm them".

No, I still think that the most probable explanation is that attack on the Abbey was preformed as covert operation. Probably the automatic one, pre-programmed into Rakurai Array to be launched some time after Archangel would "depart".
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:04 pm

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Theemile wrote:So my IMHO - Khody was murdered by Chichiro, who also wanted to get rid of anyone associated with him. But Schueller objected, and forced Chichiro to step back. Still, Chichiro wasn't actually satisfied, and thus he left some programs and instruction for both Rakurai Array (to destroy the Abbey) and for Temple (to write Khody out of records) - to be activated after Schueller would be out of picture.

<...>

The only reason I can think to strike it would be to erase someone/thing. Since the whole world knows of Seijin Kody, even if most of the official story was been expunged, it can't be to delete his existence. Perhaps to destroy some piece of technology? (What if he was physically augmented, and the Archangels didn't want future pilgrims seeing a Terminator chassis lying in Kody's tomb.)
A Rakurai strike on the Abbey of the Snows was indeed intended to erase something - actual physical proof Kohdy really existed. The Abbey contained his Tomb and his possessions, like his magic sword, armor, and the diary he was keeping.

Kohdy wasn't physically augmented. But he had been Sergeant Major Cody Cortazar in the TF Marine Corp, who spent 15 years as an unarmed combat instructor and was twice first runner up the the Fleet wide unarmed combat contests, and was a master swordsman. We can make a pretty fair guess as to why he was accepted when the volunteered to become a Seijin, and they could selectively reactivate some of his memories (like driving an aircar and using communicator.)

Figures of legend are just fine, as long as they stay figures of legend. If proof they actually existed surfaces, cans of worms are opened.
______
Dennis
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by DMcCunney   » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 pm

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Dilandu wrote:The most puzzling question is why actually it was needed at all. If some Angel wanted to get rid of the Sisterhood, he could use much less... direct measures (like sending microbots to start a big fire in the Abbey, for example), so it would looks pretty "natural".
Who would care about it looking "natural"? The Abbey of the Snows was in a deliberately remote location no one had cause to visit. It was remote enough the rest of the world didn't even notice when it was destroyed, because no one was near enough to see it.

The destruction of the Abbey was to remove any physical proof Seijin Kohdy actually existed. Dropping a rock on it would be the quickest, simplest, and most efficient solution to the problem. It would destroy the tomb with his body, and all his Seijin gear.

By the time Merlin and company are involved, he's a being out of fairy tales. The stories about him are great fun, but nobody actually believes he was real, and there are enough other known Seijins to document that Seijins existed.

Kohdy was a threat to Chihiro, who did his best to erase him.
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Dennis
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Re: St. Kohdy’s tomb: what REALLY destroyed it?
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:01 am

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DMcCunney wrote:Figures of legend are just fine, as long as they stay figures of legend. If proof they actually existed surfaces, cans of worms are opened.
______
Dennis


This rule is not exactly the one that could be applied to Safehold, which is literally filled with proofs of legendary figures existence.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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