Schueler, Chihiro, and the Post-War Development (SPOILERS)

Randomiser wrote:RFC thanks for the long post on the relative positions and responsibilities of the orders over time. I'm still a bit uncertain on education however.

RFC wrote:FAQ Overview of education on Safehold.
‘education was provided at the primary level by the Chihirite Order of the Quill but supervised by the Order of Schueler. Overseeing education, vetting the curriculum, selecting (or removing) teachers, etc., were all seen as responsibilities of the Inquisition as the keeper of allowable knowledge and people's souls.’

Up thread
'Over the next several decades they found the Order of Schueler, as the new administrators of the Inquisition, pushing further and further into control of primary and secondary education. The Bédardists remained the primary teaching order, but they found themselves more and more under the authority of the Schuelerites, and the Schuelerites expanded their own teaching responsibilities to dominate at the primary school level. By the time a Safeholdian student graduates into the higher schools where the Bédardists hold primary authority, the Order of Schueler has already instilled the basic platform on which the equivalent of high school and college education will build, which gives it enormous power when it comes to shaping basic attitudes.'

'The Inquisition is also responsible for all primary and secondary education on Safehold. The schoolmasters in virtually every Safeholdian town are Schuelerites.'


Description of the orders (LAMA)
'Today, the Bédardists are philosophers and educators, both at the university level and among the peasantry' (my bold)

It's how to hold all these together? Are the Primary 'Schoolmasters' Scheulerites or Chihirites? Do the Bedardists or the Scheulerites staff Secondary Schools? Are 'the higher schools where the Bédardists hold primary authority', 'the equivalent of high school and college education' what the FAQ calls Colleges and Universities on Safehold? If so, in what sense are the Bédardists educators 'among the peasantry', very few of whom get to tertiary education level?

I'm not deliberately nit-picking, just pointing out the bits that seem kind of 'fuzzy' to me. Maybe I've spotted the bits you reserve the right to tweak? Or do we just say it's a big planet and not everything is done the same way everywhere?

BTW if the Scheulerites really are almost all the schoolmasters then Father Paityr's comment to himself in April 895 that ‘I doubt there are half a dozen Schuelerites left in the entire Old Kingdom by now, and most of them are Temple loyalists hiding in the deepest holes they can find’ (HFAF H/B p125) suggests the education system in Charis must have been initially devastated when all the teachers decamped.

I said the Schuelerites are schoolmasters, not the bulk of the faculty. Think of it this way. The Chihirites provide the majority of the teachers at the lower levels (equivalent of grammar school and high school), but the Schuelerites provide the principles and the heads of the local school boards. They have some hands-on roles in the classroom, but their main function is to insure that the curriculum reflects sound doctrine and "right thinking," not to do the teaching itself.

This means, among other things, that when the Schuelerites left Charis in droves after Armageddon Reef, the school "principals" and "district superintendents pulled up stakes, but the majority of the faculty remained in place and simply kept teaching under the new management of the Church of Charis.

The Bedardists teach primarily in what we might think of as "honors high schools" and Safeholdian college equivalents. They also run the equivalent of literacy programs among the peasantry, providing outreach beyond the official schools sponsored by Mother Church and the more enlightened secular rulers. They are required (in both venues) to operate in accordance with the Church mandated, Inquisition approved curriculum and guidelines, but it is a separate area of emphasis for them. Further, the passage you cited should not be construed to forget that the Bedardists are Safehold's mental health hygenists and, by and large, do a pretty good job at it.

Hope this clarifies somewhate.

How has the primacy of the various great orders changed in the Church of Charis? I realize that they probably play a much nicer game, but I imagine that there is still some competition and clashing happening entirely naturally, especially given that the Schuelerites have mostly quit.

blackjack217 wrote:How has the primacy of the various great orders changed in the Church of Charis? I realize that they probably play a much nicer game, but I imagine that there is still some competition and clashing happening entirely naturally, especially given that the Schuelerites have mostly quit.

That's getting further into the weeds than I really want to go just now, I'm afraid.

Potato wrote:Could you not quote an entire post like that if you are not going to talk about any of the points raised within? The forum layout is so inefficient (all that wasted space to the sides, *sigh*) that I really do not want to scroll forever just to get through a pointless quote block.

I Agree. Thank you

RFC wrote: I said the Schuelerites are schoolmasters, not the bulk of the faculty. Think of it this way. The Chihirites provide the majority of the teachers at the lower levels (equivalent of grammar school and high school), but the Schuelerites provide the principles and the heads of the local school boards.

<snip>

Hope this clarifies somewhate.

Yes it does, thanks very much.

Most of my difficulties seem to be due to different cultural and terminological expectations. In British English ‘Schoolmaster’, where still used, would refer to any (male) teacher, not just the boss and wouldn’t apply to any educational bureaucrat. When I hear ‘lower levels’ in connection with education I would tend to think of Primary Schools, (say grade 1-6 US, roughly) and ‘higher levels’ would be post-school education (above grade 12 US). High Schools tends to make me think of our Secondary Schools, which is not quite right since those cover grade 7-12. That and distinguishing between primary=low grade and primary =main, e.g. as in Primary teachers compared to primary teachers overtaxes the little grey cells sometimes.

Maybe the description of the Order of Chihiro could usefully be amended since it doesn't mention the teaching role which must take up a fair chunk of the order of the Quill's manpower.

There has much speculation on the nature of Schluer & Chihiro, What about Jwo Jeng? The proscriptions of Jwo Jeng as much as the terror of the inquisition were the primary forces that kept the people of Safehold backward and in thrall to the Church.

Was Jwo Jeng also a dead Archangel whose name was put on a book he detested or did he fully agree with the proscriptions? If, Chihiro was indeed the last or one of the last Archangels and head of the Church he must have approved of the proscriptions and the Inquisition. Unless, of course by that time, later in Chihiro's life, Chihiro was merely a figurehead, like the current Grand Vicar, and had no control of the Frankenstein monster of a Church that had been created.

Sharp Claw wrote:There has much speculation on the nature of Schluer & Chihiro, What about Jwo Jeng? The proscriptions of Jwo Jeng as much as the terror of the inquisition were the primary forces that kept the people of Safehold backward and in thrall to the Church.

Was Jwo Jeng also a dead Archangel whose name was put on a book he detested or did he fully agree with the proscriptions? If, Chihiro was indeed the last or one of the last Archangels and head of the Church he must have approved of the proscriptions and the Inquisition. Unless, of course by that time, later in Chihiro's life, Chihiro was merely a figurehead, like the current Grand Vicar, and had no control of the Frankenstein monster of a Church that had been created.

My impression was that Jwo-jeng was one of the original Archangels that died in Kau-yung's grand exit. Based on current information, I think Chihiro and Schueler were the only two Archangel-level figures that survived Kau-yung *and the post-infighting airbrushing of history that Chihiro did.* (Maybe Andropov as well; he's only been mentioned in the Appendices so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the text shortly in connection with Saint Kohdy.)

Jwo-jeng's Proscriptions would have been part of the Writ from the beginning, though, long before the Alexandria strike or Kau-yung's nuclear response. The Proscriptions were the core of the Writ, absolutely essential to Langhorne's anti-tech plan for humanity.

CSB wrote:My impression was that Jwo-jeng was one of the original Archangels that died in Kau-yung's grand exit. Based on current information, I think Chihiro and Schueler were the only two Archangel-level figures that survived Kau-yung *and the post-infighting airbrushing of history that Chihiro did.* (Maybe Andropov as well; he's only been mentioned in the Appendices so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the text shortly in connection with Saint Kohdy.)

Jwo-jeng's Proscriptions would have been part of the Writ from the beginning, though, long before the Alexandria strike or Kau-yung's nuclear response. The Proscriptions were the core of the Writ, absolutely essential to Langhorne's anti-tech plan for humanity.

Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

It's an assumption based on Merlin's thoughts that they seem to have been in charge after the Archangels' War.

You're very likely correct that many Archangels/Angels were present when Kau-yung gave his surprise gift to Langhorne.

SWM wrote:

CSB wrote:My impression was that Jwo-jeng was one of the original Archangels that died in Kau-yung's grand exit. Based on current information, I think Chihiro and Schueler were the only two Archangel-level figures that survived Kau-yung *and the post-infighting airbrushing of history that Chihiro did.* (Maybe Andropov as well; he's only been mentioned in the Appendices so far, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in the text shortly in connection with Saint Kohdy.)

Jwo-jeng's Proscriptions would have been part of the Writ from the beginning, though, long before the Alexandria strike or Kau-yung's nuclear response. The Proscriptions were the core of the Writ, absolutely essential to Langhorne's anti-tech plan for humanity.

Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

DrakBibliophile wrote:It's an assumption based on Merlin's thoughts that they seem to have been in charge after the Archangels' War.

You're very likely correct that many Archangels/Angels were present when Kau-yung gave his surprise gift to Langhorne.

SWM wrote:Since the War of the Fallen was primarily a war between competing factions of Archangels struggling for power after Langhorne's death, it is quite clear that more than just Chihiro and Scheuler survived the pocket nuke. I don't understand why people seem to think that those two were the only or the primary survivors.

I'll have to reread that part--I don't recall it off the top of my head. But that doesn't explain why some people seem to think that Chihiro and Schueler were the only Archangels to survive the nuke, when it is pretty clear that some other Archangels had to have been involved in the War after the nuke.