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Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought

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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:52 pm

runsforcelery
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isaac_newton wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

You are obviously going to accept no analysis which doesn't concur with your views on the subject.

SNIP

You obviously don't see it that way. I do, and of the two of us, I am somewhat more intimately familiar with both the details of their construction and the capabilities of the empire building them.


OUCH - thats gotta hurt!

I'm just wondering if Dilandu is an encryption of Skimper? :lol:



That's not fair. Unlike Skimper, Dilandu really obviously knows his stuff about RL naval history. I think he's drawn a couple of wrong conclusions from it, but they're mainly in the form of extrapolating to Safehold from a pretty firm grasp on what naval development was really like. I think the problem is at least in part that because he knows as much naval history as he does, he has handy mental pigeon holes into which his concept of the Safeholdian situation slips. Unfortunately, they aren't the right pigeonholes IMHO. And he feels --- partly, I think, because of those pigeonholes and how he thinks the expertise and concepts for building the KH came from --- that Merlin is stacking the deck so heavily against the other side that the story will suffer as a consequence of the destruction of the reader's tension. "Of course the good guys are going to win, because they'll always be producing the godweapon they need." When you add that to the fact that he clearly hasn't really grasped what I've been saying about the starting point of pre-Merlin capabilities, it isn't too surprising that he comes to the conclusions to which he comes, and they certainly aren't based on blowing vapor the way Skimper's "brilliant inspirations" were.

I admit it's frustrating for me when I've given a heck of a lot more detail and peeks "behind the curtain" than most writers do to have someone persistently telling me that I don't understand the possibilities of my own fictional world, but he's scarcely an idiot ranting about things he knows nothing about, and I respect his own knowledge of the subject of naval history.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Alistair   » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:51 pm

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And his disagreements with you and your replys give me an ignorumus on Naval matters a lot of insights

Thank you Dilandu and DW for your heated but informative disagreement
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:00 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
That's not fair. Unlike Skimper, Dilandu really obviously knows his stuff about RL naval history.


Thanks!
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Alistair   » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:21 pm

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I guess the question now is how would two or 3 KHs go up against the dreadnought?
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:17 am

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Alistair wrote:I guess the question now is how would two or 3 KHs go up against the dreadnought?


Not very good. They still be inferior in terms of firepower and protection. The best possible tactic for them would probably be to try to came closer and fight a battle on the small distances - were their 8-inch guns could be usefull and their 10-inch guns could penetrate the "Dreadnought" armoured belt.

The problem is, if there are enough space for battle, and the "Dreadnought" would start to retreat, firing the salvos from rear guns, it would take to KH at least an hour to break the distance and the "Dreadnought" may pound them hard during that.

Even if they would be able to start the close combat, it would still be very dangerous for KH. They MAY have a chanse to win in close combat, but the victory would be pyrric.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Silverwall   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:47 am

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Alistair wrote:I guess the question now is how would two or 3 KHs go up against the dreadnought?


Badly I think, historical examples are Sharnhorst and Guinesinau vs invincible BCs at the Faulklands, (admitedly they didn't have the speed to force the range)

Other examples are the Blucher being mugged by the BC force at dogger bank.

But the best example has to be Defence and Black Prince getting trashed at the battle of Jutland when they got too close to the high seas fleat battleline.

Even if they do manage to get close enough to force the range don't forget that HMS Dreadnought has 5 18 inch torpedo tubes that could make a total mess of a ship that wasn't designed for a torpedo environment.(points at the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue vs U9) At those ranges the 20+ 12 pounder anti torpedo guns could also make quite a mess of the KHs upperworks and funnels to slow them down.

On the topic of the main debate I sometimes question how fast Charis is able to physically build these ships given that most industrial powers of the approx same level of development (Italy and France in particular) took upwards of 5+ years to build each ship. However I am willing to overlook that in the interest of a good story. Even being able to give Radio to the romans (tv tropes) it would not be a very interesting story if you have to wait 10-15 years for the supporting infrastructure to be built. Also it must be admitted that the Schizo tech base Safehold has makes it harder to draw historical parallels.
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by EdThomas   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:05 am

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Two thoughts...
1. The Dreadnoughts have much better fire control and should win handily if fall of shot can be observed at outer ranges.

2. The best tactic for the KH might be to present the smallest target profile by heading directly for the dreadnought. It is much easier to optically track a target moving across your field of fire than one heading directly towards you. Come to think of it, if the dreadnought tries to optimize the number of guns on target it will be moving across the KH's path and easier to track.

If they should both opt to head directly toward the other, the outcome might become a matter of who has the stronger bow in a ramming situation. Range will be changing very quickly making accurate elevation of the guns difficult, especially if there is any kind of sea.
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:02 am

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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
That's not fair. Unlike Skimper, Dilandu really obviously knows his stuff about RL naval history.


Thanks!


OK - sorry on that - it was a bit low :oops:
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by OlorinNight   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:58 am

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EdThomas wrote:Two thoughts...
1. The Dreadnoughts have much better fire control and should win handily if fall of shot can be observed at outer ranges.

2. The best tactic for the KH might be to present the smallest target profile by heading directly for the dreadnought. It is much easier to optically track a target moving across your field of fire than one heading directly towards you. Come to think of it, if the dreadnought tries to optimize the number of guns on target it will be moving across the KH's path and easier to track.

If they should both opt to head directly toward the other, the outcome might become a matter of who has the stronger bow in a ramming situation. Range will be changing very quickly making accurate elevation of the guns difficult, especially if there is any kind of sea.


About your point n°2: it would mean that the KH would let the dreadnought cross their T. Doing that with a ship that has a better fire control, a heavier salvo and a toughter protection does not seems to be the most survivable option...

In modern battles between navies, the closest I can come to is the battle of Surigao Straits. I admit that the presence of torpedoes and the huge numerical superiorities of the US navy played a major role, but the situation of the Japanese imperial navy made it so that when the survivors reach the US main battle line, they only thing they achieved was to sink quickly. The battle was really totally one-sided. Multiple factors explain that, but one of them is the T crossing achieved by US battleships...

For the rest, I agree, a Dreadnought would beat in a bloody paste any KH daring to engage it. However, there are no dreadnought style ship on the surface of Safehold...
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Re: Hypothetical match up KH vs Dreadnought
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:00 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
OK - sorry on that - it was a bit low :oops:


It's all right ;) , i didn't ever know this... Skimper, yes?
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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