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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Philip Stanley » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:37 am | |
Philip Stanley
Posts: 109
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Provoking the OBS into an attack may not be all bad! Consider the advantages of kinetic bombardment in major excavation projects. If you wanted a canal dug between Howell bay and the Cauldron, all you would have to do is set up something that provokes a kinetic bombardment on the narrow strip between the two. Voila - a good sized ditch between the two!
Any comments? Philip Stanley |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Randomiser » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:14 am | |
Randomiser
Posts: 1451
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Random thoughts
How exactly does "the Dawn Star departed in glory", from the POV of early Safeholdians, who sure weren't tracking it on radar, mean that it didn't fly into the sun? "Merlin is in huge trouble if the Hamilcar comes back." Well, maybe. Hamilcar wasn't a warship and if Merlin is building something that can take down the OBS anyway, the Hamilcar is toast. Alternatively, maybe assault shuttles can be used both ways and I don't see the remaining command crew being much good against PICAs with all the restraints off armed with TF weapons, especially since none of them were military types. Merlin wouldn't have used advanced nerve agents on Safehold, but to take the Hamilcar intact? By definition, there are no non-combatants aboard the Hamilcar. Admittedly, "The Hamilcar is gone" is one of RFC's famous "stirring the pot by saying something that's nowhere near as definitive as it first looks" posts, but I don't really expect to see it back. Even if I'm wrong however, (has been known, Major Phandys ) having it back might well be more of a bonus than a problem from Merlin's POV. |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by CRC » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:08 am | |
CRC
Posts: 131
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The production capacity and capabilities of the Hamilcar was the primary reason the Fallen lost the war. Their hoarded production, similar to OWL's cave if I read the books correctly, eventually was dwarfed by the resources the Hamilcar had. Taking out the OBS is not an issue. There are myriad of ways to take it out. (Its the temple aspect that is stopping Merlin.) But most of those simple ways would be useless against any ship with moderate defensive capability, which the Hamilcar has to have, and it can move. RFC always has a habit of one upping the challenge to the protagonists in a way that is not expected. Clyntahn's rakuri pre-emptive strike, Mesa's strike against Manticore, Thunderbolt, etc. (Everytime Honor got a bigger command - she was faced with an even more impossible situation to win.) With a relative peace between COGA and Charis, and with Charis having a huge technological/manufacturing edge that they will most likely maintain - the next phase (books) has to have a real challenge to Merlin and since electricity won't be around for a while, Fed tech via the Hamilcar vs WWI steam tech sounds about as hopeless as you can get - but still a bit winnable with the right tactics and strategy - but also in keeping with RFC patterns in the past, not without horrendously personal and gut wrenching losses. I just don't see Chohiro giving up the Hamilcar after the pocket nuke attack. Dictators not under pressure from a superior force rarely give up anything that could guarantee them power. But then again, there is pockets of tech and knowledge popping up everywhere. Who's not to say that under the temple is riddled with "servitors" ready to go upon activation - or another cave or three or a dozen scattered around the world. |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Louis R » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:20 pm | |
Louis R
Posts: 1296
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It probably wasn't a matter of 'giving up' Hamilcar: Chihiro was as mortal as the rest of us, and knew it, so he wouldn't have had any problem making sure it was gone once _he_ was done with it. For any number of reasons, starting with a fear that there might be somebody on the command crew who was just waiting to undo his life's work if they had the capability. [hmmm... i wonder how many 'angels' 'departed' with the Dawn Star?]
Given that, it's plausible that he'd have done it as soon as he could after the end of the War and construction of the Temple. He doesn't seem to have been around all than much longer himeself - less than the lifetime of the oldest Sisters of St Khody, certainly - so might have made sure that the situation was exactly as he wanted it as soon as possible.
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Keith_w » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:06 pm | |
Keith_w
Posts: 976
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The question of angels returning to the Dawn Star/Hamilcar is one that I have wondered about for some time. If I were an archangel/angel, I wondered, would I just re-board the ship, after years of toil constructing Safehold and sail off into the sun <set> or on a long voyage, in a stasis that I might not wake up from? I don't think so. I might. however, decide to enjoy the fruits of my labours by providing the first of the vicarate, getting married, and living the good life in the rebuilt temple until I finally passed on to my richly deserved reward. --
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Loren Pechtel » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:59 pm | |
Loren Pechtel
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Good point, I was thinking of the speed they used, there was no discussion of the maximum real-space speed.
But this no doubt sets a maximum speed. |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by thanatos » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:05 pm | |
thanatos
Posts: 324
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I think that if Hamilcar is still around, it's probably floating in the asteroid belt of the Kau-Zhi system. That would be ironic given that that was the original plan of the mission planners. But I seriously doubt Chihiro & Co. are in it for a ride at relativistic speeds. What would be the point of whatever is hidden under the Temple, the Key and the "prophecy" handed down to the Wylsynn Family if the "Archangels" intended to return that way?
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by Jonathan_S » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:28 am | |
Jonathan_S
Posts: 8408
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Reading this it occurs to me that Merlin is wrong - assuming enough TF tech survived in the Hamilcar, or under the Temple, or in some other pro-Archangle bunker/vault the returning Archangel could hit a big reset button without bombarding the whole world and killing off the human race. I don't think RFC will go that route because it's not likely to be a great story. But Safehold was set up in the first place by using TF tech to reprogram everyone's memories into Adams and Eves (except for the command staff). In theory returning archangels could round up everybody (if at least everybody they don't kill off) and do fresh memory replacements removing any knowledge of the industrial revolution, gunpowder, the Jihad, the corruption of the Church, or any secret societies left from Shan-Wei's war. Basically reboot the planet on Longhorns original plan. Tedious to do, and boring to read, but a way to theoretically dodge the choice Merlin is trying to engineer between returning mankind to the path of technical progress or wiping them out... |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by isaac_newton » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:37 am | |
isaac_newton
Posts: 1182
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Hmmm - dont think that would be a runner [apart from being a poor story ]. Dont forget that the re-programming was done in the fleet over years while the journey was on-going and the terraforming proceeding. Problems: 1) population much much larger now that at Creation. Population not nicely enclosed in cryo-tubes 2) physical resources much less - most of the fleet is defunct, no-more 3) skill resources much less - Bedard and [I guess many of her henchman] went up in the pocket nuke explosian. We know the remaining Angels had some skill in this line, but were not top notch |
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Re: eroding the proscriptions and BOOM! <spoiler warning> | |
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by evilauthor » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:21 pm | |
evilauthor
Posts: 724
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4) Said reprogramming requires the subject have a neural interface installed in their head (I forget what they were called), something the Federation installed in all their citizens in childhood but that NO ONE alive on Safehold has now, not even any of the Inner Circle. It's actually implied to not be possible to install in adult humans, at least not with stock Fed Tech. |
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