The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority

Dilandu wrote:

OlorinNight wrote:You are right, of course, I meant the pre-drednought style, but lost the pre somewhere between my hands and my keyboard...

A, i understood. But the problem is they are completely inessicient to the function of coastal warfare. They are too big, too sluggish and too vunerable. The british attack on Alexandria in 1882 clearly demonstrated, that even superior artillery and better crews could not guarantee victory for ocean-going ships against fortifications. After more than 1700 shots from 203-406 mm guns and much more from the light cannons, the british fleet - eight ironclads and seven unarmored ships - were able to bring down only TEN rifled guns.

This would probably be true if the Church tech level was close to the one of Charis. For the moment, they are still two or three steps behind on things like ships and heavy artillery. The KH have a much more powerfull artillery than what the Church currently have.

And for high water action, nothing can come close to the KH, so even if Charis finally have to leave them in high water, they would represent the ultimate interdiction ships: even schooners wo'nt be able to evade them, and the most powerful Church galleon going against them is only going to become the newest hulk in the depth of the ocean...

So, while I agree they wwon't be at their best in some part of the coastal area, I still doubt that the threat they are facing there from the Church is not live threatening. And in the middle of the ocean, they have no equals...

And do not forget that they won't be subjected to the strength and direction of wind which, especially in coastal area, remains a huge advantage over sailing boat. the only two things that may cause problems in coastal area are water depth and the space available to turn (especially at high speed). The first one may be a drawback compared to traditionnal galleons, but the second one is shared (partly at least) with galleons (a sail boat needs to have some speed to turn this take space). And in exchange, they gain complete independance from wind. I think it's a very fair deal...

Dilandu wrote:I don't argue with that. I just pointed, that all this could be obtained cheaper, more effective and faster with the ironclads, adapted for coastal operations. The ocean-going ironclads against coastal defense... well, you could do this, but FOR WHAT?!

Awhile back RFC posted 3 potential designs for ships smaller than the KH VIIs. Of these 3 designs, I would call 2 of them light cruisers and the 3rd probably classifies as a heavy cruiser. Here is the link. The cruiser designs are on page 6 of the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116&hilit=king+harald+VII&start=50

Henry Brown wrote:

Dilandu wrote:I don't argue with that. I just pointed, that all this could be obtained cheaper, more effective and faster with the ironclads, adapted for coastal operations. The ocean-going ironclads against coastal defense... well, you could do this, but FOR WHAT?!

Awhile back RFC posted 3 potential designs for ships smaller than the KH VIIs. Of these 3 designs, I would call 2 of them light cruisers and the 3rd probably classifies as a heavy cruiser. Here is the link. The cruiser designs are on page 6 of the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116&hilit=king+harald+VII&start=50

Colleague. Charis DID NOT NEED ANY CRUISER. Light cruiser, heavy cruiser, battlecruiser - they are useless.

They need monitors. Low-sides, slow, unseaworthy monitors that could smash any coastal fortifications and defeat any coastal fleets. There are simply NO navy for Charis to battle in open sea; and for some time there wouldn't be any. Any ocean-going ship for Charis now is only a waste of material and construction power.

This would probably be true if the Church tech level was close to the one of Charis. For the moment, they are still two or three steps behind on things like ships and heavy artillery.

Exactly the same situation that were on Alexandria forts. The egyptean guns were slow muzzle-loaders, only a handful of them rifled and no one bigger than 10 inch. The british artillery were two steps ahead. But... it simply won't work.

And for high water action, nothing can come close to the KH, so even if Charis finally have to leave them in high water, they would represent the ultimate interdiction ships: even schooners wo'nt be able to evade them, and the most powerful Church galleon going against them is only going to become the newest hulk in the depth of the ocean...

Building the ocean-going ironclads to battle the shooners and galleons? Well, why simply don't use nuclear bombs to battle the rowboats? Theoretically, Charis COULD build a primitive gun-type atomic weapon without at least excessive amount of electricity...

Potato wrote:

Dilandu wrote:If this information is still valid,

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116&hilit=King+Haarald

The mighty "King Haarald"'s is pretty useless.

Unless they want to literally drive the Haaralds onto the beach, there is nothing about the Haaralds which would prevent them from engaging coastal fortifications. The sublittoral zone has more than enough depth to accommodate an ironclad.

The KH's will be very useful and a symbol of total Naval superiority. Park them in any Home Port anywhere on Safehold and they become the end of any argument. Capitulation is the only option short of destruction on an massive scale.

We will see the ICNS Gwylym Manthyr in Gorath Bay pounding the Palace into rubble. A simple message delivered in an excessive manner. The City will be allowed to surrender but King Raynahld's home is toast.

Dilandu wrote:Colleague. Charis DID NOT NEED ANY CRUISER. Light cruiser, heavy cruiser, battlecruiser - they are useless.

They need monitors. Low-sides, slow, unseaworthy monitors that could smash any coastal fortifications and defeat any coastal fleets. There are simply NO navy for Charis to battle in open sea; and for some time there wouldn't be any. Any ocean-going ship for Charis now is only a waste of material and construction power.

If you go a few pages further in the link, you'll find a design for a Delthak II gunboat. RFC describes it as a larger version of the River class ironclads with much improved seakeeping ability. It is a casemate ironclad, which means it is more similar to CSS Virginia than it is to USS Monitor but other than that it seems to fit the role of a coastal warship. Is that the kind of ship you are talking about?

As to your other point about cruisers being overkill for the current situation, things such as threat levels have a way of changing. If the current war does not end quickly or if there is some kind of armistice followed by a resumption of hostilities then what kind of threats will the ICN have to face in 5 or 10 years? If Charis builds ships which are merely good enough to deal with the current situation, then there is a risk that those ships will not be sufficient for future needs. Something along the lines of the KH VII is going to have a much longer useful service life.

Dilandu, finding one example where bombardment of coastal defenses from offshore was ineffective is NOT proof that 'it doesn't work' it's only proof 'it didn't work on that occasion and in those circumstances'.

You ignore what was always seen as the main reason for the production of the King Haarahld's - securing protection of Charis and it's deepwater shipping from any future CoG navy with armour and exploding shells. The are an island empire which lives by trade, of course they want to control the oceans. All the other stuff the battleships can do is secondary to that. They might be considered overkill by some, but Charis never intends to be threatened again in the way it was near the start of the war, especially if all it takes to prevent it is spending money. (You do remember they are sitting on mountains of gold and silver on Silverload Island?) The 'Shock and Awe' effect will also be useful.

Randomiser, you are completely ignore just one point: there are NO threat to the Charis on the seas at all. There are simply no other navy that have ANY ironclad battleships at all.

Any possible threat to Charis in near future may be only in some form of commercial raiders. Well, if you think that chasing schooners with 10000-tonnes ironclad is a good idea, the Clyntahn would probably give you a medal "For glorious action against heretics economy from grateful admirers". Because it's absurdly expensive.

The ironclad warships are VERY expensive units. For Charis, even one "King Haarald" must be a equivalent of a hundred galleon or tenth of unarmored steamships. Even for the powerfull Earth nations of 1880th, the 10000-tonnes ironclads were very, very expensive, especially in mass production. And even the most powerfull naval powers of XIX century, such as Britain, France, Germany and United States (in the 1890th) periodically found first-rate battleships as too expensive and tried to build "something smaller".

The Charis have less than a decade of XIX century level of technology. For him, building a large ocean-going warships is as "cheap and easy" as for Kongo to build the aircraft carrier. They COULD do that; however it would be enormously hard and costly, especially when you are fighting a total war against most of the planet population.

So the "King Haaralds" is a enormous strain for Charisian resources and economy. The Charisian could as well start to build V-1 cruise missiles to bombard Zion from Siddarmarc; it undoubtedly possible; it undoubtedly very expensive and not military effective.

If Charis builds ships which are merely good enough to deal with the current situation, then there is a risk that those ships will not be sufficient for future needs. Something along the lines of the KH VII is going to have a much longer useful service life.

In theory - yes. But in that theory, Charis must immediately started to produce fuel for ballistic missiles and uranium for nuclear warheads; what if after 50-100 years, the Church started a revanche war in tferms of nuclear attacks against Tesselberg and Cherayth, and paratrooper invasion in Emerald and Tarot?

The problem is, that the current war is much more important for Charis that the possibility that some warships may be useful in some other war after. In order for this theory to work, it is necessary that some enemy ironclad fleet appeared in a very short period of time, during "King Haarald"'s proposed service life.

No nation in any Earth war ever do somethin like that. The United Kingdom don't laid up new battleships during First World War (although certainly could do it "for the future") and United States cancelled a great number of warships (including two half-finished battleships, one almost finished grandcruiser, more than nine state-of-art heavy cruisers and several heavy carriers) durin the later phase of World War II. By your logic, USA should had a frantic pace to finish building all twelve planned "Des Moines", just in case that some other navy could pull out of the hat a cruisers with autoloaders.

Actually, there is a navy for King Haarahlds to fight... the Dohlaran navy. And KHs can be the spearpoint of the advance, the ships that soak up most of the damage the Dohlaran navy (and coastal artillery) can dish out, so that the entire fleet (armored ships under sail, and classic galleons, which will form the most of the fleet) can approach and then clear the Gulf of Dohlar of everything that moves.

Once Dohlar is occupied, and Silkiah (if Charisians don't take Silkiah, Siddarmarkians will), the ICN can block any transport between Haven and Howard, thus preventing any tithes from South Harchong, Desnair, Sodar and Delferahk from reaching the mainland Church.

At this point, it will only have income from Temple Lands and North Harchong. And North Harchong economy and industry.. isn't among the best Safehold has to offer.

Oh and the second prong of the attack - ships through the Hsing-Wu's passage, some warships and others can be transport/supply, land 30,000 troops with artillery etc, keep them supplied, they don't have to break into the Temple building itself, just besiege it and starve them out.

A couple KHs can keep the Hsing-Wu passage clear of anything North Harchong could send to help from the west. There doesn't have to be many of them, and a squadron of regular galleons can help against any small fries along the way.

Second, production of KHs serves to improve Charisian industry so it can tackle on other stuff, not necessarily warships. Experience in building steam engines makes for a good start at building a railway network.

Later refit them with diesel engines (which can be made with or without electricity).

Once they reveal the full truth, there won't be much anyone else can do about it. Maybe a couple of internal rebellions, but nothing on the scale of the current war.