Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn?

John Driver wrote:

Donnachaidh wrote:I was rereading By Schism Rent Asunder and something occurred to me:
Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn when Clyntahn was presiding of the execution of Erayk Dynnys with something that will look like a smaller version of the Rakurai? If he had it would have likely been seen as God disapproving of what Clyntahn had been doing.

Merlin doesn’t dare operate his SNARCs closer than 5 miles from the temple. In “A Mighty Fortress” Merlin formed the intent to shorten Clyntahn’s life if he ever strays far enough from the temple. He also acknowledged that it was unlikely to happen. Clyntahn almost never leaves the temple at all, even in the summer, when the weather is ever so briefly nice outside.

At the time of Erayk Dynnys’ death, I don’t think Merlin was even aware of it. News of Erayk’s death was a surprise to Archbishop Maikel Staynair.

I don't want to go into too much detail here (for obvious reasons), but there is a very good reason Merlin isn't going to use anything that could possibly be identified (by someone who knows what to look for) as advanced tech to take out anyone in Zion or anywhere else. He still doesn't know what's under the Temple or if it's likely to have any long, earnest conversations with the kinetic bombardment platforms. He is determined not to abuse the faith of the Safeholdians, and not just because it would be morally wrong, either. That's definitely one of his reasons, but even if it wouldn't be --- or even if he was prepared to ignore the moral dimension in favor of pragmatism --- his real fight is going to be overturning the theology of the Chuch of God Awaiting after the Gof4 has been defeated. If he turns into someone who can be labeled as "Just as bad as Clyntahn was!" by manipulating the faith of the devout, it will set his plans back considerably.

He does find out a bit more --- just a bit --- about the Temple's basement in the next book, and he and his friends in Charis have to make a real gut-wrencher of a choice in this book. Clyntahn gets in some good licks, I'm afraid, but the Charisians are positioned to start playing with some neat new toys by the end.

There! Don't you feel all better now? :-)

@runsforcelery

?? How did you get to be FIRST SPACE LORD ??

I've not heard of that rank before :)

R

kbus888 wrote:@runsforcelery

?? How did you get to be FIRST SPACE LORD ??

I've not heard of that rank before :)

R

Because he created all the worlds we talk about.

T2M

@thinkstoomuch

Thanks for the info :)

R

thinkstoomuch wrote:

kbus888 wrote:@runsforcelery

?? How did you get to be FIRST SPACE LORD ??

I've not heard of that rank before :)

R

Because he created all the worlds we talk about.

T2M

He's the wrong gender to be much higher in the ranks...

kbus888 wrote:I am having trouble following this post as I am not familiar enough with the "Honor Series"

The PEEPS I have heard of

?? What is a "Theisman miss step" ??

I know an explaination may be too long to post - - - so I am ready to continue my life in ignorance of this point ;)

R

I recommend you do 1 thing before you entertain any other reading to-do's:

Begin reading Honor Harrington for start to finish. It is a remarkable story. If you don't get into the techie stuff in novels, skip those. But read the stories. You will not be disappointed. I like the stories so much, I went back and began reading the Hornblower series by Forester.



Thomas Theisman arranged a coup to topple the Committee of Public Safety, the final iteration of the Peep polity. In many ways his character is very similar to Duchairn's. Many of the stories may be on the Baen CD, if you buy one of the more recent in the series.

runsforcelery wrote:

John Driver wrote:

Donnachaidh wrote:I was rereading By Schism Rent Asunder and something occurred to me:
Why didn't Merlin kill Zhaspyr Clyntahn when Clyntahn was presiding of the execution of Erayk Dynnys with something that will look like a smaller version of the Rakurai? If he had it would have likely been seen as God disapproving of what Clyntahn had been doing.

Merlin doesn’t dare operate his SNARCs closer than 5 miles from the temple. In “A Mighty Fortress” Merlin formed the intent to shorten Clyntahn’s life if he ever strays far enough from the temple. He also acknowledged that it was unlikely to happen. Clyntahn almost never leaves the temple at all, even in the summer, when the weather is ever so briefly nice outside.

At the time of Erayk Dynnys’ death, I don’t think Merlin was even aware of it. News of Erayk’s death was a surprise to Archbishop Maikel Staynair.

I don't want to go into too much detail here (for obvious reasons), but there is a very good reason Merlin isn't going to use anything that could possibly be identified (by someone who knows what to look for) as advanced tech to take out anyone in Zion or anywhere else. He still doesn't know what's under the Temple or if it's likely to have any long, earnest conversations with the kinetic bombardment platforms. He is determined not to abuse the faith of the Safeholdians, and not just because it would be morally wrong, either. If he That's definitely one of his reasons, but even if it wouldn't be --- or even if he was prepared to ignore the moral dimension in favor of pragmatism --- his real fight is going to be overturning the theology of the Chuch of God Awaiting after the Gof4 has been defeated.turns into someone who can be labeled as "Just as bad as Clyntahn was!" by manipulating the faith of the devout, it will set his plans back considerably.

He does find out a bit more --- just a bit --- about the Temple's basement in the next book, and he and his friends in Charis have to make a real gut-wrencher of a choice in this book. Clyntahn gets in some good licks, I'm afraid, but the Charisians are positioned to start playing with some neat new toys by the end.

There! Don't you feel all better now? :-)

Runsforcelery,

Thank you for confirming this important motivation behind Merlin's actions. The confirmation opens up a really unpleasant thought for plot twist.

Someone close to our heros finds out about the ruth and can't handle it. Play around with who that may be and consider how dreadful that will be to our protagonists.

I doubt I can think of any more gut wrenching development. You may, of course. I can't wait to find out if my guess is correct.

@runsforcelery

You have a really really wicked sense of humoiur !!!

I love it ;)

R

Thanks for the synopsis as well as the reading recommendation :)

R

PeterZ wrote:

kbus888 wrote:I am having trouble following this post as I am not familiar enough with the "Honor Series"

The PEEPS I have heard of

?? What is a "Theisman miss step" ??

I know an explaination may be too long to post - - - so I am ready to continue my life in ignorance of this point ;)

R

I recommend you do 1 thing before you entertain any other reading to-do's:

Begin reading Honor Harrington for start to finish. It is a remarkable story. If you don't get into the techie stuff in novels, skip those. But read the stories. You will not be disappointed. I like the stories so much, I went back and began reading the Hornblower series by Forester.



Thomas Theisman arranged a coup to topple the Committee of Public Safety, the final iteration of the Peep polity. In many ways his character is very similar to Duchairn's. Many of the stories may be on the Baen CD, if you buy one of the more recent in the series.

PeterZ wrote:

kbus888 wrote:@PeterZ
Long and short of it...does the G4 survive this book?
Anyone? Looking for some sort of poll here.

I believe the Go4 will not disolve so soon as in the next book.

They are TOO GOOD as evil characters and I think Mr Weber is not yet finished using them in his story ;)

Besides, the waters are getting somewhat muddy as at least one of them seems to be having a regeneration of faith - - -

That's kind of what is driving me nuts. I see 2 route this story can take. Duchairn's presence makes either possibility viable and interesting.

1) CoGA turns into the theocratic version of the honorverse Peeps where the Shuelerites become the StateSec equivilent. This route fairly requires that the proscriptions will be tossed out through various pragmatic arguments or dispensations on both sides.

2) CoGA reformers under Duchairn purges the Clyntahnistas from power. They approach their Writ with a new sense of faith. That means they actually begin delivering the services the Writ demands from the priesthood as well as keeping the proscriptions. Getting around the proscriptions becomes theological lawyering.

What I do not see is the release of The Truth until after one of these 2 roads are taken. This is why I asked the question.

Which route will the story take? Will the Clyntahnistas escape Duchairn's Theisman coupe (using an Honorverse analogy)? Or will Duchairn make a miss step that Theisman avoided?

Those two routes are well taken, but they envisage a 'natural' evolution of the story based on no further major interventions. Everything we've read so far about Schueler's Key that the Wilsons hold indicates it's a Deus Ex Machina level plot changer that may radically destabilize the whole thing.

The concept of a successfully imposed, demonstrably 'true' planetary religion is fascinating, and one of the big draws of the series. It's hard to envision any relatively quick way to get rid of it in any significant part of the population without something VERY VERY dramatic happening. In a 'natural' progression of events without any further sudden shakeups, I think your second path would be the most likely, or perhaps the first path for a while followed by a collapse, then the second path. Regardless, however, you can't get around the existence of the Temple and it's Miracles itself, or the 6 Million Testimonies of the original colonists, or the blasted landscape of Armageddon Reef. The Church of God Awaiting is REAL by any measure anyone on Safehold outside of St. Jerneau knows, regardless of their feelings for the rightness or evilness of the current management and the resulting current war.

Without something big happening outside of any predicted plot path, you would have to wait for the temple itself to quit working and fall apart and the testimonies fade into millenial obscurity to even start to fight against the CoGA theology.... and that would take a very long time, likely many centuries. Everything the Mad Wizard (though I suppose we should call him RFC here ;-)) has posted lately outside of the books states he's decided to compress the time period covered quite a bit. Initially it was going to be a multi-generational effort on the part of the good guys. Not anymore.

That means something big and unanticipated has to happen. Probably not this book (statements above by RFC supporting), but within the next couple after that.