Convoy escorts - SPOILER for SNIPPET 8 of HFQ

Larry wrote:OK my first attempt to respond timed out and I got logged out before I finished. Let's try again!

runsforcelery wrote:I appreciate all the suggestions, but the existing schooners, with regular Navy crews, are thoroughly adequate as convoy escorts, guys. The problem is numbers, and even there I'm seeing some very high numbers estimated per convoy.

I'm confused. High numbers of escorts? High number of raiders? I've some how lost the thread. And if their getting ships cut out on them then either the numbers of escorts aren't adequate, or they need better designs. It's no shame to admit that their are better designs and the Inner circle certainly have knowledge of them. My real problem following you is here.

runsforcelery wrote:Now, if Desnair gets to the point of sending out full-scale galleons (which are basically 19th century double-banked frigates) things get a lot messier.

In a pigs eye. Unless your using the word "galleon" for any fighting ships (and that can't be from all the textev otherwise). RFC perhaps you've lost me but this:
http://visual.merriam-webster.com/image ... alleon.jpg
is a galleon and this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 3h9307.jpg
is a 19th century two-decker. And they ain't the same ship by a landslide.
Further if you say 19th century frigate I'm thinking:
http://c252289.r89.cf3.rackcdn.com/149462.jpg
because a frigate as opposed to a ship-of-the-line was generally single decked (well single gun decked, the other nominal 'gun' deck was more a berth deck.)

So in faith I'm genuinely and truly confused. Exactly what are the Charisians using as "escort" Galleons? Real Galleons or something your calling a Galleon but that has a different name in the reality I am in?

And if they are actually Galleons then let me suggest something. Despite intermarriage and putting down the odd rebellion, the subsidiary states of the Empire are still pretty shaky allies. It's not that long ago that Charis was the enemy, the religious angle is still an open wound and being beaten still has to smart. Finding ways to hand out royal contracts to places to buy goodwill wouldn't hurt. Each of those island nations (Emerald, Tarot, Corisande) is going to have good shipyards for making wooden ships and not much facility for making steam powered iron hulled ones. (And if I was Cayleb I might be a little leery of putting my best designs into their hands even if I did think they could build them) By commissioning advanced sailing designs such as actual full rigs or barqs and brigs you get more advanced hulls and escorts that can beat the snot out of Desnarian raiders, while running rings around them, stimulant trade, improve the overall standing of the empire and seed in technology that's not nearly as controversial as the steam belching monsters the Charisians seem to be comfortable with. (Taint natural I tell you, setting a fire on board a ship, no good will come of it!).
I'm just saying, galleons, Galleons? Man, Galleons are soooo 17th century. Lets get those shipyards cranking some real ships, Brigs and Brigantines, Barques and Full Rigs. The shipyards are there! No more Galleons! Build real ships!

Larry

You have been reading the books? I only ask because you seem to have missed quite a few minor details about the ships Charis has been producing from the very first moment they began building purpose-built broadside-armed sailing ships.

Before proceeding, I might point out that using the phrase "in a pigs eye" in reference to the author's understanding of how the military technology in his novel works might be considered just a soupçon . . . rude? At the very minimum, please grant me the courtesy of assuming that I know what the opposing warships are armed with and what they're handling characteristics are.

Having said that, I would also point out that your comment that most frigates of the 19th century were armed on a single deck is wrong. From the last quarter of the 18th century they were armed at least on their quarterdecks and forecastles, in addition to their main deck guns; by the second decade of the 19th century (especially after the Brits' ran into the big American frigates) "double-banked" frigates with fully armed spar decks (the equivalent of two full gun decks) were the norm. Constitution's broadside was considerably heavier than that of a Dutch two-decked ship-of-the-line, for example.

More to the point for the purposes of this discussion, however, have you somehow failed to note that the terminology used on Safehold and by Safeholdians for two-decked ships mounting up to 68 guns has been "galleon" throughout the books? For that matter, even a cursory reading of the sail plans described for these ships should make it clear that we are talking about very late 19th century designs, not 17th century-style galleons.

As for getting the shipyards up to build "brigs, brigantines and . . . real ships," by this time, the Charisian navy has literally scores of twin-masted schooners mounting from 16 to 24 shell-firing 30-pounder carronades and a single shell-firing long gun on a pivot which would be capable of ripping the ass off of any gun brig ever built by the Royal British Navy and are more weatherly and maneuverable to boot. The "galleons" of the Imperial Charisian Navy are considerably more powerful than (and at least as weatherly and maneuverable as) the USS Constitution — you remember, the one that has a heavier broadside than a Dutch ship-of-the-line? — by this time. Trust me, the ships that I am proposing using for convoy escort are 100% capable of dealing with any threat Desnair or any of the mainland realms are going to manage to get to sea past the fleets keeping an eye on their surviving naval ports.

As for the shakiness of the Empire, you overestimate it considerably. As for the shipyards of the Empire's member realms, they're already fully occupied building merchant ships, schooners, and galleons.

Please look at my immediately preceding post for an explanation of what happened to the convoy Rock Point was thinking about. It's not something that is going to be repeating itself now that the full nature of the threat is understood and adequate convoy tactics are going to be adopted.

Sometimes even the bad guys get lucky.

The whole nature of commerce protection is going to put an enormous monkey wrench into the flexibility of Charisian logistics, but it's definitely not something that can't be dealt with by those "soooo 17th century" galleons Charis hasn't been building since well before the Battle of Armageddon Reef.

runsforcelery wrote: In the less than likely eventuality that the escorts of some future convoy are similarly swamped, the merchantmen in the convoy who are equipped with carronades and naval gun crews to man them provide a backstop to the escorts. They constitute "armed merchant cruisers," if you will, embedded in the convoy proper, and a carronade armament would pose a major threat to any light cruiser Desnair is capable of building.

just a thought. but since the EOC navy and army are using flares/rockets, and most ships are wood, are any of the merchant vessels armed with a butt load of them or have them as cargo... the night flares would do real nice caught in the rigging.

and they don't weigh much. you can load them real fast. and they are pretty to watch, especially with a hot cup of coffee.


laz

I know it's your story,rfc, and imma let you finish, but you're wrong about your universe and the terminology used there in. Sorry, had to be said

Lol

Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I know it's your story,rfc, and imma let you finish, but you're wrong about your universe and the terminology used there in. Sorry, had to be said

Lol

In what way? I've used "galleons" the same way, consistently, throughout, both in internal POV from characters and in narrative. I've also described them again and again. I've used the terms "schooner" and "brig" throughout consistently, as well, just as I've been consistent in describing their armaments. If you mean that I'm using existing terms from our historical experience and applying them to ships they were not originally applied to (which is fair enough for "galleon") why, pray tell, should the folks living on Safehold have reinvented the same words that we've used for specific ship types? They've gone from galleys as their primary warship type to broadside-armed sailing ships in just five or six years; you think their terminology would adjust to all the bells and whistles in that much time?

If I'm misusing my own terminology, please be kind enough to instruct me as to the way in which I've done so.

I'm sorry, the sarcasm didn't carry as well as I'd hoped.I just can't get over people who argue with the author about HIS universe, and not even about something that strains credulity even in a work of fiction, but about what the characters in that work may say, our how they may choose to label a thing. I suppose next someone will take umbrage with "angle-guns" instead of calling them howitzers

I can understand why some people might find themselves confused about why pretty much all sail powered ships on safehold are generically referred to as "galleons" when obviously there were many different names for the many different classes here on earth, but I tend to look at it like cars; it may be a prius or a Malibu; it's still a "car"

runsforcelery wrote:

Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I know it's your story,rfc, and imma let you finish, but you're wrong about your universe and the terminology used there in. Sorry, had to be said

Lol

In what way? I've used "galleons" the same way, consistently, throughout, both in internal POV from characters and in narrative. I've also described them again and again. I've used the terms "schooner" and "brig" throughout consistently, as well, just as I've been consistent in describing their armaments. If you mean that I'm using existing terms from our historical experience and applying them to ships they were not originally applied to (which is fair enough for "galleon") why, pray tell, should the folks living on Safehold have reinvented the same words that we've used for specific ship types? They've gone from galleys as their primary warship type to broadside-armed sailing ships in just five or six years; you think their terminology would adjust to all the bells and whistles in that much time?

If I'm misusing my own terminology, please be kind enough to instruct me as to the way in which I've done so.

Nautical terminology changes, the left side of the ship facing the bow was once called larboard, the right side starboard. These terms from the old days of the right mounted steering oar. Steer-board became starboard and the left was larboard the side without the steer-board. About the end of the seventeenth century the British navy dropped larboard for port, you tie up on the side without the steer-board. As to ship types it's a mishmash inconsistent between nations IE there is no 'correct' nomenclature. As I understand it on Safehold a Galleon is a three masted ship rigged for square sails, a brig is a two masted ship square rigged ship, a schooner is a two or three masted ship with fore and aft sails. Note square rigged ships may have fore and aft sails spankers and jibs.

IIRC square sail names go bottom to top, mast sail (ie fore sail, main sail, and if it has one aft sail usually there is a spanker rather than a square sail; then the royals, also with the mast name proceeding them, fore, main, and aft; then the gallants also with the mast name proceeding them fore, main, aft; and finally the top gallants fore main and aft.

Square sails are attached to yards, spankers and schooner sails to gaffs, and the jibs rigged to ropes called fore stays.

Poker

Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I'm sorry, the sarcasm didn't carry as well as I'd hoped.I just can't get over people who argue with the author about HIS universe, and not even about something that strains credulity even in a work of fiction, but about what the characters in that work may say, our how they may choose to label a thing. I suppose next someone will take umbrage with "angle-guns" instead of calling them howitzers

I can understand why some people might find themselves confused about why pretty much all sail powered ships on safehold are generically referred to as "galleons" when obviously there were many different names for the many different classes here on earth, but I tend to look at it like cars; it may be a prius or a Malibu; it's still a "car"

Undercover Fat Kid wrote:I know it's your story,rfc, and imma let you finish, but you're wrong about your universe and the terminology used there in. Sorry, had to be said

Lol

runsforcelery wrote:In what way? I've used "galleons" the same way, consistently, throughout, both in internal POV from characters and in narrative. I've also described them again and again. I've used the terms "schooner" and "brig" throughout consistently, as well, just as I've been consistent in describing their armaments. If you mean that I'm using existing terms from our historical experience and applying them to ships they were not originally applied to (which is fair enough for "galleon") why, pray tell, should the folks living on Safehold have reinvented the same words that we've used for specific ship types? They've gone from galleys as their primary warship type to broadside-armed sailing ships in just five or six years; you think their terminology would adjust to all the bells and whistles in that much time?

If I'm misusing my own terminology, please be kind enough to instruct me as to the way in which I've done so.

Umpf. Sorry I missed the intent. Been up all night, severe back pain (which makes me cranky), due for a visit to the pain management specialist Friday to do something (hopefully!) about it, and just found out Megan will be having oral surgery next week, the day before my birthday. All of it, I can legitimately claim, not exactly designed to make me a little ray of sunshine or properly observant of posters' intent.

Thanks for the explanation. Use a big enough clue stick, and even I catch on sooner or later.

I had thought it was a little odd that you were up this early in the morning; judging by when you usually post I'd figured you for a night owl.I certainly hope you get to feeling better soon. I'm sure that Megan's surgery will go well, but I definitely understand the apprehension. If being a little cranky on the boards is the only way that fatigue, pain, and worry manifests itself for you, then you're a better man than I am, and I promise I won't hold it against you

Umpf. Sorry I missed the intent. Been up all night, severe back pain (which makes me cranky), due for a visit to the pain management specialist Friday to do something (hopefully!) about it, and just found out Megan will be having oral surgery next week, the day before my birthday. All of it, I can legitimately claim, not exactly designed to make me a little ray of sunshine or properly observant of posters' intent.

Thanks for the explanation. Use a big enough clue stick, and even I catch on sooner or later.

Question: Why can't Church raiders carrying shell firing weapons? I mean TECHNICALLY. I realize that politically, Church leaders (aka Clyntahn) may not want to "waste" limited shell production on raiders, but what TECHNICAL reasons are there that would stop raiders from carrying shells?

I mean, we've seen that even the Church can produce shells for some pretty small artillery pieces. And you don't need many shell firing guns to total a wooden ship.

So if the Church is more interested in destroying Charisian ships rather than capturing them, shell firing guns would be absolutely ideal for that purpose.

There may be a lower limit to how small of a projectile they can fill and fuse and still get a useful boom out of. Bear in mind that the walls of the shell need to be thick enough to withstand the impact of slamming into a wooden hull.

There's no text ev I'm aware of that points to them making rounds the way modern explosive rounds are made, ie a cross section of an APIE round for a .50 BMG looks like a maze, and when the bullet hits something the binary components mix to make the boom we all know and love.

evilauthor wrote:Question: Why can't Church raiders carrying shell firing weapons? I mean TECHNICALLY. I realize that politically, Church leaders (aka Clyntahn) may not want to "waste" limited shell production on raiders, but what TECHNICAL reasons are there that would stop raiders from carrying shells?

I mean, we've seen that even the Church can produce shells for some pretty small artillery pieces. And you don't need many shell firing guns to total a wooden ship.

So if the Church is more interested in destroying Charisian ships rather than capturing them, shell firing guns would be absolutely ideal for that purpose.