Hi PeterZ,
Where is the textev that the CoGA has cleansed 'itself numerous times'?
Given the mysterious death of Seijin Khody, it hasn't been cleansed in a very long time, regardless of any public pronouncements, ie any have been more cosmetic than effective.
We have no indication of any such cleansing in the last 200 years or so since St Everard was murdered, which is rather long to wait hoping something happens for the better .
Given that the circle waited 20 years without there being a cleansing implies they're so rare they would be signally recognised.
Once the reputations of the vicars Nynian has had assassinated become public thanks to OWL, that Clyntahn's supporters have been protected by the inquisition to continue their criminal acts as long as they supported him, how much lower can the vicarate's reputation fall?
Since losing the jihad obviously means the CoGA is no longer being blessed by God for some reason [what did they do to be so punished?], perhaps those surprised might consider that the CoC and reformists are right after all.
Given that the Holy Writ likely teaches that the victory over the fallen was inevitable, the alliance victory proves God is on their side.
Especially when the CoGA members experience the results of the alliance winning which are largely positive.
What evidence is there that Rhobair wants, let alone sees any chance of 'healing' the CoGA?
Duchairn's renewal of faith is a personal matter, totally independent of what was happening in the CoGA; there is no indication he's wanted, desired, mentioned or tried to reform anything about the CoGA, nor has his example generated much interest by his colleagues in following his example.
That alone indicates how far from salvage the vicarate is.
Being a realist, knowing all of the above, hoping let alone expecting to heal the schism is rather remote in Rhobair's thinking or planning in my opinion.
What are the terms you think the alliance must accept?
What peace can Rhobair promise will persist beyond him when any hints of negotiation or admission of guilt will immediately trigger an internal civil war in the CoGA?
After more than 20 years of running the inquisition, who's left that isn't a Clyntahn crony?
10%? 5%? 2%
You seriously think the inquisition is going to accept its destruction quietly?
Even if Rhobair's peace overtures are truly honest, what chance are they in any way practical or worthwhile in pursuing?
How can a disarmed, impoverished church enforce any of its peace promises, even if it were willing to try?
Ignoring such petty peace overtures, what I can only see as vapor; the EoC will actually be quite properly seen as being prudent and wise in doing so, not giving up it's costly yet worthy prize of victory for 'a mess of pottage' of such pathetic promises.
Since the CoGA has pledged to destroy the EoC, why can't it destroy the CoGA in return, in simple reciprocity as Admiral Yairley pointed out in HFaF, since an eye for an eye is evidently in the Holy Writ?
How is naturally fighting for their survival somehow seen as evil?
Since their war is aimed at the Go4, not the vast membership of the CoGA spread across the continents, the EoC has never threatened to destroy the bulk of the CoGA membership [unlike the CoGA], ie the church in general or their beliefs, and has plainly made that point repeatedly even in private conversations, as well as sermons and public pronouncements, so twisting their struggle into an obvious evil seems too much of a stretch.
Exactly when or how did the EoC state it only wanted to reform the CoGA?
Since even the TL's in Tellesberg know the CoGA has promised only annihilation to all of Charis etc regardless of whether they are fervent TL's, and all saw that promise being fulfilled in Siddarmark especially by our ex TL's now anti-CoGA soldiers, I doubt many would be upset if the alliance announced it was ensuring such atrocities would never happen to its citizens again.
The alliance menu of options is far greater than Duchairn's, and his is far more limited than you've suggested.
L
PeterZ wrote:Randomiser wrote:Peter, it isn't Don who suggests the War has cost the CoGA its moral authority it's Nahrman (and hence RFC, most probably)
I think you swing back and forward between assuming the Safeholdians are naive and sophisticated as it suits your argument. You assume they see things strictly in black and white sometimes, 'if the EoC win the war outright they must be serving the dark', but sometimes assume they easily detect considerable grey areas, 'the war is the fault of the GoF not the CoGA'. In fact the text shows that many ordinary CoGA Safehold people are sickened by the things the church is doing and making them do in this war. Some of them realise the church hierarchy is letting itself be used by the GoF just to save its own skin, which in itself destroys its moral authority. There are naive Safeholders, but the more naive they are the more they believe all the instructions come from the CoGA itself, after all, the Grand Vicar proclaimed the Jihad from Langhorne's throne. They, plus the Inquisition, will make it impossible for Duchairn to hold a rump CoGA together if he tries to do a deal with the Heretics.
Duchairn is not a 'godly man', he is a mass murderer who helps old ladies across the road and gives food parcels to little orphan children. He may now be a mass murderer with moral qualms, but we have yet to see how much of that is repentance and how much is just remorse because the original plans didn't work out, they are now getting whupped and Clyntahn keeps digging them deeper into the hole. If Clyntahn and the cruelty were gone and the Church were somehow winning, I'm not at all convinced Duchairn would conclude a peace that allowed the CoC to continue.
Of course the CoGA is going to persist beyond this war and of course it needs reformed, but by far the safest, and most likely way to do that is after a thorough military victory on the Allies part. Let's face it, even 'now' it would be real hard to convince anyone with two brain cells to rub together that any peace offer on the CoGA's part wasn't made because they were losing the war. Besides,'It was all that bad man's fault and the rest of us are good people, really.', is an impossible 'sell'; too many people have started looking at the church with different eyes. (Which brings us back to Nahrman's comment.)
Merlin fully expects that the next wars, over the Great Reveal and the consequent religious issues, are going to be even nastier and bloodier than this one. Lasting peace isn't coming for quite a while, absent a real surprise of some kind from RFC.
Jeff,
I am not restating my entire argument with each post. Let us review that argument.
Safehold has a monolithic religious, moral, legal and natural philosophy paradigm derived from the Writ. It is as stated in this snippet a seamless description of God's will.
God created EVERYTHING and left proof of this fact for every Safeholdian to recognize.
God, through His archangels, left behind His will for mankind found in the Writ.
He created the Church to guide mankind in the proper way of life that would please Him.
To a Safeholdian every aspect of life is touched by God. Skills passed from father to son since Creation were first given to man by the archangels. Blessings and curse are littered in every Safehodlians life that remind them that the world around them is the product of the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. This last sentence is worth repeating.
Every aspect of existence on Safehold is made possible by the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. As an example, microorganisms are demons set loose by Shan-wei to harm mankind but are thwarted by Hasting's(?) blessings. This belief is universally held outside of the St. Zherneau Inner Circle. There is no choice for Safeholdians but to accept those rules as facts of life, because as Merlin mused in this snippet the proof of God's existence is unassailable. His existence and His will are fact. Disobeying God is placing the souls of everyone an individual loves at risk. This isn't part of some nuanced theology that might be taught but part of the bedrock foundation of the Safeholdian belief structure and is at the very heart of the CoGA's power.
To these people Clyntahn is terrifying and Duchairn is a godly man, but both are acting within the scope of the CoGA authority as given by God. Clyntahn has the authority to do what he does, but is corrupt and uses that power for impure motives. Duchairn is viewed as using his authority to help God's children. Recall Duchairn has not visibly supported Clyntahn's purge of the Vicarate. If the CoGA cleanses itself as it has done numerous times since Creation, that is part of God's plan. If the CoGA is defeated and dictated to by outside forces, how else is that described than a victory by the Dark? If the loyalist priests preach that the schism will not be healed. If many priests
do not preach that, those that do will claim coercion. If those priests are removed from office, coercion is proved. If those priests are not removed, the rupture remains.
Any arguments made to assert that God has removed his authority from the CoGA must be made within the context of the Writ. The Writ, however, a stipulates that the CoGA HAS the authority to act as it has. Safeholdians have had that drilled ceaselessly into their heads. The only argument that might be made from the outside is that the authority God granted the CoGA has been abused. That argument is likely being accepted throughout all of Safehold by now. Once the jihadi forces have been destroyed, the truth of that argument will be universally accepted because God did not bless the CoGA forces with victory.
If the CoGA fights to the bitter end and is defeated, it will be concluded that everyone of God's agents within His Church has lost His blessing. If the perceived godly one, Duchairn, within the CoGA appears to recognize his error and attempts to fix it, he will be given the benefit of the doubt that God has NOT withdrawn His blessings from the CoGA. If the EoC does not accept the offer to negotiate,
they will lose the growing certainty that God does bless their cause.
Duchairn wants to heal the CoGA and knows that defeat by the EoC will make that healing infinitely harder and less likely than willingly reforming the CoGA. If he does not heal his church and the resulting generations of strife claims more lives, they will be on his head as he would see it. He must try to mitigate that cost in lives and reform the CoGA. This is at the core of his renewal of faith.
If Duchairn promises reform under terms that the Allies must accept, the Allies will have no choice but to give peace a chance. This will be especially true, if Clyntahn is killed and the Inquisition is purged of his cronies. If the EoC ignores the honest peace overtures by Duchairn, it will be correctly seen as a desire to destroy the CoGA not to reform it. That will destroy the support of many in Old Charis and likely most in Siddermark and the rest of the Empire. They can't risk that.
I am not saying these options are best for the EoC and the good guys. I am saying these are the menu of options Duchairn will have before him. His projected decisions are based on the text of his internal monologues. I don't believe these fundamental elements of Safehold will change until the Writ is discredited and that won't be possible until the Return.
