medicine

mustangman wrote:I agree, much of medicine improvement is going to have to wait for electricity and the discovery of radiation. I was thinking along the lines of germ theory, antibiotics. and other drugs such as anesthetics etc. I do think that with the microscopes as has been said germ theory at least is inevitable, as well as the understanding of how the other "curses" of Pasquale are caused. such as scurvy and osteonecrosis of the jaw.

Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?

I am sure my wife will be greatly relieved to hear microscopial demons are at fault the next time she brings home a sore throat from school.
I'll make her some Pasquale tea.

runsforcelery wrote:

mustangman wrote:I agree, much of medicine improvement is going to have to wait for electricity and the discovery of radiation. I was thinking along the lines of germ theory, antibiotics. and other drugs such as anesthetics etc. I do think that with the microscopes as has been said germ theory at least is inevitable, as well as the understanding of how the other "curses" of Pasquale are caused. such as scurvy and osteonecrosis of the jaw.

Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?

Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?[/quote]

only the same problem as every other area of knowledge on the planet, rote knowledge is not understanding. nor can they hope to go beyond the dispensations until the proscriptions are lifted. The writ is obviously a hugely informative work since it covers every aspect of life, I suspect it must be contained in several volumes. and since I cannot imagine that anyone has actually written the writ out per se I have not read it lol, so I have limited knowledge of what is contained in it. I work in the medical field so I was curious about these things. I have read the books several times and of course there is a ton of information in each book so I am sure I missed parts of it, but I do not remember reading about anesthetics, or other plants with medicinal value besides the fleming moss, I expected they were present but did not remember them. also I was especially curious about the ability to treat battlefield injuries, without a knowledge of ABO compatibility, electrolyte balance etc, there is a very limited amount that can be done for exsanguinating injuries and shock, besides just stopping the bleeding. i.e. blood transfusions and iv fluids would not be possible.

as far as what's the problem, no problem at all, I love the books and was only wondering, and anticipating advances in medicine would be introduced along with all the other advancements not a criticism just a question.

runsforcelery wrote:

mustangman wrote:I agree, much of medicine improvement is going to have to wait for electricity and the discovery of radiation. I was thinking along the lines of germ theory, antibiotics. and other drugs such as anesthetics etc. I do think that with the microscopes as has been said germ theory at least is inevitable, as well as the understanding of how the other "curses" of Pasquale are caused. such as scurvy and osteonecrosis of the jaw.

Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?

Well, do the dispensations include vaccination or blood-typing for instance? Both would make major differences to mortality and neither requires major technical advance, not to begin with at any rate. Come to think of it the thread a while ago about whether and, if so how, diseases were prevalent on Safehold never really came to anything.

SWM wrote:Medicine and health care is already at 19th century levels, and has been since the Book of Pasquale was written. So it would be hard for medicine to improve to the same degree as military and manufacturing technologies have improved. Still, there will certainly be some improvement. As SCLibrarian notes, microscopes are already being used, so germ theory is inevitable once minds are open enough to consider it.

Off-topic and putting on my librarian hat, I have to ask about your username, SCLibrarian. Does it have any relationship to reality?

Reply. Yep. Retired public librarian and now volunteer church librarian (Mauldin U. Methodist, Mauldin, SC). I've been adding the Safehold series to our church library's fiction collection as the books are published because they give insight (in a sort of alternate history way) to the issues that occurred during the Protestant Reformation. Both sides have those who feel they are sincerely carrying out the will of God, and both sides have those who are using the upheaval for personal gain. Also, it shows the problems that are inherent with any religious organization that has too much secular power. One of those "absolute power corrupts absolutely" things. The problem of equating the church, an institution established by God but run by men so subject to human frailty, with an infallible God is yet another issue that Weber addresses. Of course, I am also adding the books because they are really good reads, but that alone doesn't justify being included in our church's limited shelf space.
Okay, more than your wanted to know. Verbosity is us.

IIRC there's no text evidence for blood typing or vaccination, but I see no reason that Pasquale would not have introduced them.

Or at least in the case of vaccinations, detail the general steps to create them.

I doubt either would require proscribed technology.

Randomiser wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?

Well, do the dispensations include vaccination or blood-typing for instance? Both would make major differences to mortality and neither requires major technical advance, not to begin with at any rate. Come to think of it the thread a while ago about whether and, if so how, diseases were prevalent on Safehold never really came to anything.

SCLibrarian wrote:Reply. Yep. Retired public librarian and now volunteer church librarian (Mauldin U. Methodist, Mauldin, SC). I've been adding the Safehold series to our church library's fiction collection as the books are published because they give insight (in a sort of alternate history way) to the issues that occurred during the Protestant Reformation. Both sides have those who feel they are sincerely carrying out the will of God, and both sides have those who are using the upheaval for personal gain. Also, it shows the problems that are inherent with any religious organization that has too much secular power. One of those "absolute power corrupts absolutely" things. The problem of equating the church, an institution established by God but run by men so subject to human frailty, with an infallible God is yet another issue that Weber addresses. Of course, I am also adding the books because they are really good reads, but that alone doesn't justify being included in our church's limited shelf space.
Okay, more than your wanted to know. Verbosity is us.

Verbosity is a common trait here. Good to see another librarian!

runsforcelery wrote:

mustangman wrote:I agree, much of medicine improvement is going to have to wait for electricity and the discovery of radiation. I was thinking along the lines of germ theory, antibiotics. and other drugs such as anesthetics etc. I do think that with the microscopes as has been said germ theory at least is inevitable, as well as the understanding of how the other "curses" of Pasquale are caused. such as scurvy and osteonecrosis of the jaw.

Guys, they already have pretty decent anesthetics, and Fleming moss and a few other native plants provide a relatively effective base of antibiotics. They've also been able to see germs for a long time, and, thanks to the Writ, they know exactly what they are: demons loosed upon fallen humanity as a consequence of Shan-wei's Rebellion and the War Against the Fallen. They also know how to defend against them by using the dispensations granted by the Archangel Pasquale.

Where's the problem?

The history of antibiotics to date has not shown any serious longevity for effectiveness. Many antibiotics have had an effective life of only a decade or two. Mutations occur rapidly in bacteria, and they develop enzymes that destroy the antibiotics, or change the molecular structure of the pathogen to be resistant to the effects of the antibiotic. Even Vancomycin, which for many years was the emergency cure-all, is generating resistant strains. In it's case, that required 9 separate mutations. Without all of them, it was still effective.

My issue is that to date, there is no antibiotic that is resistant to pathogen mutation over the long haul. I suppose I should put my Science Fiction hat on and assume that a general antibiotic that pathogens could not evade or avoid would be developed, but I know a little too much to be comfortable with that. Who knows, maybe Fleming moss actually produces nanos - in which case, a mutation could turn the healing moss lethal in no time at all. I further suppose it is possible that there is a temple-based AI system by Pasquale that produces new antibiotics what the old ones stop working.

I guess I'm just uncomfortable with providing Fleming Moss and there, all fixed...

(My father was a pathologist, so I picked up a lot of this from him. Did you know that during WW II they recycled penicillin from the urine of treated patients?)

Sorry
-- Bob G

P.S. You can read about the history of antibiotics, antivirals, and chemotherapy in Life Saving Drugs, The Elusive Magic Bullet from the Royal Society of Chemistry.

DrakBibliophile wrote:IIRC there's no text evidence for blood typing or vaccination, but I see no reason that Pasquale would not have introduced them.

Or at least in the case of vaccinations, detail the general steps to create them.

I doubt either would require proscribed technology.

You can get a level of blood typing by mixing small quantities of the donor and the recipient's blood, and looking under a microscope to see if they clump (agglutinate). I suppose there could be gengineered rabbits that have specific antigen sensitivity, as so to react (die?), when exposed to the A or B or Rh-positive blood factors (and, btw, there are also cCdDeE blood types as well).

I think that diazo dyes are beyond the reach of pre-coal tar chemistry, so blood typing by reagents seems unlikely.

-- Bob G

There may not be anything for Safeholdians to vaccinate against. If the people and animals brought to Safehold didn't have diseases (and why would they?) I don't think many would have evolved in a mere 900-some years; most new diseases tend to jump from animals to humans.

Maybe antibiotics are used specifically for stuff like infected wounds. Do we know that Safehold has regular infectious disease?