What should Safehold do when it knows the truth?

If you look at the pre-electric technology of Earth, you'll be quite suprised at how complex it became. Clockwork can be used for calculation machines (a la Charles Babbage, or however his name was spelt) and getting to grips with the complexities of machines and so forth allows for the developement of logical processes required for when electricity is introduced. Plus, it forces the people working on it to learn first-hand about forces, vectors and rotational dynamics, always useful. In addition, the use of non-electrical devices such as water wheels and (possibly) steam engines will allow the developement of production techniques startlingly similar to modern electrical-only factories. Once built and with the war dealt with, they should be fairly easy to re-equip.

As for avoiding electricity for as long as possible, the Gbaba have damned good sensors. If you know that your enemy has good hearing, you remain as quiet as possible. A good example is a submarine near a hostile fleet. One sneeze at the wrong time and... WATCH OUT! DEPTH CHARGES INCOMING!

Awaiting comments.

When any very large body of Safeholdians find out, the results will probably turn bloody. A great number of people are going to be irate about what was done to them and their ancestors. Unfortunately that means many will turn to violence as a means to 'calm down'.

Look at what Charisians have done as a result of Loyalist attempts to assassinate Michael and Charlene. I hazard to guess that the reaction would be even stronger if the whole truth were let out.

I think it would be likely that the people who still cling to the Church of God Awaiting would be persecuted for their continuing belief. It is no wonder Nimue has been trying to avoid a war over beliefs. That sort of war only really ends when one side changes what it believes or is annihilated.

Lokekar wrote:I think it would be likely that the people who still cling to the Church of God Awaiting would be persecuted for their continuing belief. It is no wonder Nimue has been trying to avoid a war over beliefs. That sort of war only really ends when one side changes what it believes or is annihilated.

I was thinking that Merlin/Nimue was trying to cause a schism based on beliefs. Isn't that really the only way that the church can be brought down? I thought he was just trying to wait until the time was right.

Skia wrote:

Lokekar wrote:I think it would be likely that the people who still cling to the Church of God Awaiting would be persecuted for their continuing belief. It is no wonder Nimue has been trying to avoid a war over beliefs. That sort of war only really ends when one side changes what it believes or is annihilated.

I was thinking that Merlin/Nimue was trying to cause a schism based on beliefs. Isn't that really the only way that the church can be brought down? I thought he was just trying to wait until the time was right.

Lokekar wrote:When any very large body of Safeholdians find out, the results will
probably turn bloody. A great number of people are going to be irate
about what was done to them and their ancestors. Unfortunately that
means many will turn to violence as a means to 'calm down'.

Look
at what Charisians have done as a result of Loyalist attempts to
assassinate Michael and Charlene. I hazard to guess that the reaction
would be even stronger if the whole truth were let out.

I think
it would be likely that the people who still cling to the Church of God
Awaiting would be persecuted for their continuing belief. It is no
wonder Nimue has been trying to avoid a war over beliefs. That sort of
war only really ends when one side changes what it believes or is
annihilated.

Lokekar Skia is right it is not that Merlin didn't want schism over beliefs it's that Merlin wanted to wait until the time was right. Merlin also knows that this means there will be lots of blood shed. He is not happy about it but he has accepted as well.

Nimue has the benefit of hindsight and is obviously aware what is going to happen. It is a forgone conclusion that there will be a religious war even without Nimue pushing things along. I was offering my take on the Topic question. All Nimue has ever claimed to be doing with Charis is give it the tools it will need to survive and thrive. I see Nimue as a pragmatist and if sacrificing Charis at some point will lead to more lives saved, a sooner end to the proscriptions, and equality for all Safeholdians, then Nimue would do it. I try to keep in mind that Nimue already 'sacrificed' herself once no matter the personal cost and probably still willing to do it. Lucky for us and Charis that Charis is the not only the best available option, it is the only one.

After thinking about what humanity will feel about the Gbaba I am rather dubious there will be a general outcry and charge to 'go get'em'. No doubt Nimue will want to see them eradicated but until contact is made I forsee people saying they are not real, or are gone. And naturally there will be a group that will agree with Langhorne even after knowing the truth. There is going to be plenty of internal strife over just that issue. I can even see perhaps one day Safehold being 'abandoned' to the 'anti-techies' as a haven for them without any tech past the proscribed level. Very unlikely I admit as the tech base for people to go elsewhere in off itself will be a draw for the Gbaba. I somehow just like the idea of Safehold being left to those who want to live an anti-tech lifestyle while everyone else goes elsewhere.

Lokekar wrote:Nimue has the benefit of hindsight and is obviously aware what is going to happen. It is a forgone conclusion that there will be a religious war even without Nimue pushing things along. I was offering my take on the Topic question. All Nimue has ever claimed to be doing with Charis is give it the tools it will need to survive and thrive. I see Nimue as a pragmatist and if sacrificing Charis at some point will lead to more lives saved, a sooner end to the proscriptions, and equality for all Safeholdians, then Nimue would do it. I try to keep in mind that Nimue already 'sacrificed' herself once no matter the personal cost and probably still willing to do it. Lucky for us and Charis that Charis is the not only the best available option, it is the only one.

After thinking about what humanity will feel about the Gbaba I am rather dubious there will be a general outcry and charge to 'go get'em'. No doubt Nimue will want to see them eradicated but until contact is made I forsee people saying they are not real, or are gone. And naturally there will be a group that will agree with Langhorne even after knowing the truth. There is going to be plenty of internal strife over just that issue. I can even see perhaps one day Safehold being 'abandoned' to the 'anti-techies' as a haven for them without any tech past the proscribed level. Very unlikely I admit as the tech base for people to go elsewhere in off itself will be a draw for the Gbaba. I somehow just like the idea of Safehold being left to those who want to live an anti-tech lifestyle while everyone else goes elsewhere.

Lokekar the religous war has already started. The first move of the war was the group of four's attack on Charis. I do agree there will be plenty of conflict once the truth is known.

It is not a religious war just yet. Charis was careful to base their side as opposed to the corruption of the vicars, not the corruption of doctrine. It is a war about secular power not over theological principles. We know of course that the heretics are truly heretics, but everyone else in the world does not. Also the Group of Four as of yet have not declared Holy War/Jihad as well. We know Clinton is pushing that direction as hard as he can. So far it is not a war about religion itself, just the corruption of the men who are at the head of the church. A fine distinction to be sure, but a very important one.

For now it is a secular war, which is exactly what the Vicars wanted when they used their personas as the Knights of the Temple Lands to start it. Charis wants to delay a Holy War/Jihad as long as possible. When it does happen there will be no more middle ground for any nation on the planet. As friendly as Siddarmark is now that could evaporate if the Church declared Holy War/Jihad. They might have their matchless pikemen, but they can easily be invaded by land troops from the Temple Lands, Harchong, and Desnair. The sheer numbers of troops those three could bring to the battle has to give Siddarmark pause. The Church has been using them already to offset Siddarmark before this started and that is only possible if they were an equal counterweight on the whole.

Lokekar wrote:It is not a religious war just yet. Charis was careful to base their side as opposed to the corruption of the vicars, not the corruption of doctrine. It is a war about secular power not over theological principles. We know of course that the heretics are truly heretics, but everyone else in the world does not. Also the Group of Four as of yet have not declared Holy War/Jihad as well. We know Clinton is pushing that direction as hard as he can. So far it is not a war about religion itself, just the corruption of the men who are at the head of the church. A fine distinction to be sure, but a very important one.

For now it is a secular war, which is exactly what the Vicars wanted when they used their personas as the Knights of the Temple Lands to start it. Charis wants to delay a Holy War/Jihad as long as possible. When it does happen there will be no more middle ground for any nation on the planet. As friendly as Siddarmark is now that could evaporate if the Church declared Holy War/Jihad. They might have their matchless pikemen, but they can easily be invaded by land troops from the Temple Lands, Harchong, and Desnair. The sheer numbers of troops those three could bring to the battle has to give Siddarmark pause. The Church has been using them already to offset Siddarmark before this started and that is only possible if they were an equal counterweight on the whole.

Lokekar just because the churh has not declared holy war doesn't mean this isn't a religious war. A religious war isn't simply a matter a church declaring holy war. It is mater of two different sets of belief systems who viliontly disagree with each other. In this case the group of four is has decided to hide behind the mask of a seclar war. The reason Clyntahn wanted to destroy Chairs was because he didn't trust it was following the church's doctrine. He was able to talk the rest of the group of four to agree to get rid of Chairs and decided to use a cat's paw to do it instead having the church doing it itself. What Clyntahn and the rest of the group four wanted was the war to appear to be a seclar war.

I am not sure what will happen, but I think it will be presented just the same as the Gbaba were at the start. I think Merlin and his allies will win some sort of Holy War. I mean truly win, by converting the entire population.

Then we will get snippits. For example, 20 yrs after the war is won, Man goes into space to get the cruiser. 10 years later man tests new weapons that are stronger than cruisers existing tech. 10 years later man has drives that are better than cruiser. 20 yrs later man finishes fleet of new ships. 50 years later, man has several colonies, all devoted to military build up. Man then replants flag on Old Earth to bait Gbaba. I mean, it took centuries for Old Earths emissions to reach the Gbaba. I have to think the Gbaba left some sort of monitoring state in Sol System, just in case.

Gbaba show up. Get Whooped. Full Fleet shows up. Earth then unleashes newest tech. Gbaba get reamed. Series ends with humanity being forced to eradicate the Gbaba to the man as they resist peace efforts. Or, possibly, Human cruiser meets Gbaba scout and easily crushes it, using the ship to locate the Gbaba home territory. Then Human fleet goes hunting, eventually having to kill of the Gbaba to the man. The moral contemplation that Weber has infused throughout this book demands the total destruction of the Gbaba. After being forced to lead Humanity in a Genocidal War, Merlin will permanently switch off his Pica, in effect dying, crushed under the weight of the billions, or possibly trillions, of lives he has had to extinguish just so humanity can live.

My question is, what will man do later? And this will come to haunt Merlin. He is setting man on a path to tech advancement. But also on a path to war. He is basically putting man on war footing, which is the only existance Merlin/Nimue has ever known. Will the humanity Merlin leaves behind ever know how to live without war? I think Merlin will begin to contemplate this as humanity begins its push to the stars.