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Dirigible **guided** bombing

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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:06 pm

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Considering the size of the dirigibles Charis has now, and may have larger ones by time of the next book, it's possible they could have one or two in a bombing squadron fitted instead with winches etc to lower high speed boats to rescue bomb pilots or crew of crashed airships.
Then recover the ships and crew.

Thus, not a suicide mission, dangerous as hell, but not *KERSPLAT!* ;)
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:47 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:Considering the size of the dirigibles Charis has now, and may have larger ones by time of the next book, it's possible they could have one or two in a bombing squadron fitted instead with winches etc to lower high speed boats to rescue bomb pilots or crew of crashed airships.
Then recover the ships and crew.

Thus, not a suicide mission, dangerous as hell, but not *KERSPLAT!* ;)


Well, German zeppelins of WW1 carried inflatable boats exactly for the reason of possible sea rescue. But high speed boat would be too problematic. You would need to vent pretty much gas to stay low after dropping something that heavy.

Anyway, as I mentioned above - considering the Safeholdian cultural state, and the fact that Safeholdian culture did not seems to have serious aversion to suicide, kamikaze tactics would probably work fine, too.
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- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:18 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Well, German zeppelins of WW1 carried inflatable boats exactly for the reason of possible sea rescue. But high speed boat would be too problematic. You would need to vent pretty much gas to stay low after dropping something that heavy.

Anyway, as I mentioned above - considering the Safeholdian cultural state, and the fact that Safeholdian culture did not seems to have serious aversion to suicide, kamikaze tactics would probably work fine, too.



edit

after a quick search through the series, looks like I'm wrong, nothing mentioned against suicide by the Church in Safehold that I can find!
~
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:10 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:

edit

after a quick search through the series, looks like I'm wrong, nothing mentioned against suicide by the Church in Safehold that I can find!
~


Yep. So the Safeholdians probably did not have European aversion to the idea of deliberate sacrifice for noble purpose. Which means, that if things went really bad, Charisians would not have much problem asking for volunteers, capable of guiding bomb to the end.

P.S. Actually, it may be quite... interesting plot element. Especially for Merlin, who is Christian. It would be really interesting to see, say, Cayleb & Merlin beliefs really clashes, because Cayleb would not see anything particularly outrageous with the idea of voluntary kamikaze (if the situation is dire enough, of course), but for Merlin it actually WOULD be outrageous.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:11 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Yep. So the Safeholdians probably did not have European aversion to the idea of deliberate sacrifice for noble purpose. Which means, that if things went really bad, Charisians would not have much problem asking for volunteers, capable of guiding bomb to the end.

P.S. Actually, it may be quite... interesting plot element. Especially for Merlin, who is Christian. It would be really interesting to see, say, Cayleb & Merlin beliefs really clashes, because Cayleb would not see anything particularly outrageous with the idea of voluntary kamikaze (if the situation is dire enough, of course), but for Merlin it actually WOULD be outrageous.



hm, that's a fair point.

However, I think Caleb would be unwilling though due to his soaking up both Earth's religion/history and from Archbishop Staynair's compassion.
Plus, Merlin has been his mentor.
Caleb is defiantly not a person to throw away lives or mistreat his people.
Risk, yes, misuse, no.

also, there's the question of the Inner Circle probably being extremely against hypocritically using Church doctrine to recruit and use suicidal "lemmings!"
that would be wicked misuse of power by most moral beliefs and teachings.

I think "High risk" actions would be very acceptable for severe threats.
for example, during WW2, the British used commando raids to sabotage or outright steal crucial German radars aircraft etc, and things like the "X Craft" to attack the Tirpitz.

So, a Charisian glide bomb where the pilot has a reasonable if low chance of survival and pick up would I think be perfectly moral, provided the target is worth such sacrifice and the men are fully, honestly informed.

In desperation even suicidal attacks can be acceptable, but such circumstances are rare especially with the IC having SNARCs to give info on extreme risks.

For example, say a huge South Harchong fleet is due to sail and slaughter civilians in North Harchong and for whatever reasons, the Charisian fleet cannot stop them conventionally
the weather is bad with a storm front coming in from the West, helping the attackers evade Charisian forces

but, a few airships from the Valley (to the East) can come from the "rear", evade much of the storm initially and perhaps, bomb the fleet
the pilots know with circumstances, chance of being picked up, surviving, are slim at best, storms are severe threats to airships never mind pilots in the water
even so quite a few men would still volunteer to stop an atrocity and that could be morally acceptable

however, the corollary is that Zhyou-Zhwo (can never remember spelling lol) and Mahrys, possibly Siddirmark if it goes crazy and hateful enough would definitely use suicide attacks!
that's part of why I previously suggested if they got high speed small boats they'd use raids and suicide boats loaded with explosives which would be extremely efficient ways of war for them
Even a Charisian cruiser isn't going to shrug off a ton or more of dynamite going off next to their hull!
see Japan end of World War 2
if the Emperor's navy had time to train folk to pilot suicide boats effectively, they'd be extremely dangerous in coastal waters

so Charis, IMHO, really should be working on Oerlikon and Bofor cannons for fast attackers and aircraft

the Emperor's aren't above threatening people's families:
"attack the Charisian's or your kids get it!"
maybe offering money or status as posthumous rewards to family instead as that's less likely to set off revenge.

and, somehow, the enemy may get airships of their own....
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:26 pm

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SilverbladeTE wrote:
However, I think Caleb would be unwilling though due to his soaking up both Earth's religion/history and from Archbishop Staynair's compassion.
Plus, Merlin has been his mentor.
Caleb is defiantly not a person to throw away lives or mistreat his people.
Risk, yes, misuse, no.


Well, as I mentioned several times: kamikaze were the way to SAVE lives, not to misuse them. It was calculated, that chances of conventional Japanese bomber to survive USN 1944-1945 level air defenses were too low. By deliberately sacrificing one volunteer pilot, Japanese saved the lives of several more, who would otherwise be lost to achieve the same results.

So, if, for example, the abovementioned South Harchong manages to obtain workable AA weaponry - like, for example, Hothckiss revolving guns - they could easily hold airship on safe distance, making conventional attacks too risky.
if the Emperor's navy had time to train folk to pilot suicide boats effectively, they'd be extremely dangerous in coastal waters


Or they may actually obtain the torpedoes. Say, from Dohlar. Charisian-Dohlar relations may be cordial now, but the fact is, that Charisian presence in the Gulf of Dohlar would always be the concern for Dohlar safety. So, I doubt that Dohlarians would lose much sleep if some Charisian glorious battleships would be blown apart by Dohlarian-made "Kraken-mines" (let's not forget, there is no electric rays on Safehold) ;)

And it would actually be a good example of Realpolitik on Dohlar side, without the RFC's usual "everybody LOVES the Good Kingdoms, especially those beaten by them"
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:52 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:
(Snip! by RAW)

if the Emperor's navy had time to train folk to pilot suicide boats effectively, they'd be extremely dangerous in coastal waters


Or they may actually obtain the torpedoes. Say, from Dohlar. Charisian-Dohlar relations may be cordial now, but the fact is, that Charisian presence in the Gulf of Dohlar would always be the concern for Dohlar safety. So, I doubt that Dohlarians would lose much sleep if some Charisian glorious battleships would be blown apart by Dohlarian-made "Kraken-mines" (let's not forget, there is no electric rays on Safehold) ;)

And it would actually be a good example of Realpolitik on Dohlar side, without the RFC's usual "everybody LOVES the Good Kingdoms, especially those beaten by them"


As long as there is a South Harchong-Desnarian alliance, they are a much bigger threat to Dohlar then Charis is. Then there is Siddarmark Republic, which will be very unfriendly to Dohlar for some time (unless it collapses into anarchy because of prolonged economic mismanagement).
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Dirigible **guided** bombing
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:54 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
Or they may actually obtain the torpedoes. Say, from Dohlar. Charisian-Dohlar relations may be cordial now, but the fact is, that Charisian presence in the Gulf of Dohlar would always be the concern for Dohlar safety. So, I doubt that Dohlarians would lose much sleep if some Charisian glorious battleships would be blown apart by Dohlarian-made "Kraken-mines" (let's not forget, there is no electric rays on Safehold) ;)

And it would actually be a good example of Realpolitik on Dohlar side, without the RFC's usual "everybody LOVES the Good Kingdoms, especially those beaten by them"


"Realpolitik" of that sort, is what gets countries ruined.
very much, cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Charis and Dholar would have to have a HUGE divergence for such a thing to be in anyway good for Dholar.

See, the thing is, "realpolitik" is often caused by short term thinking, greedy, useless, incompetent, bigoted, egotistical morons who have far too much power, when they shouldn't be let run a parking lot never mind a country!
See, current real world world mayhem...sigh.

You overlook that in our sad world, such wahoos KEEP getting power instead of dragged out and jailed/executed, or, simply not voted for or supported.
Ergo, we keep suffering pointless internecine carnage and loss all the time.
With leaders you can't trust sometimes, yeah "hedging your bets" maybe necessary but mostly, it's short sighted.
Teddy Roosevelt's ideal of "Speak softly and carry a big stick" is great, alas folk mix it up WAY too much with realpolitik and miss out some of the essential points

First it was essential to possess serious military capability that would force the adversary to pay close attention. At the time that meant a world-class Navy. Roosevelt never had a large army at his disposal.
The other qualities were to act justly toward other nations, never to bluff, to strike only when prepared to strike hard, and the willingness to allow the adversary to save face in defeat


"bolded" parts are important.
these have been forgotten or not cared for by the spoiled arrogant brats and worse who run things currently.
Leaving resentment, pushing enemies into corners, betrayal etc always sets off spirals of problems.
We are alas, too used to this ghastly mess we have nowadays to realise that it's NOT the way things could or should be.
We are literally on a "death spiral" because of the myopic "realpolitik"!


But smart folk who genuinely give a damn and are competent, which RFC can write into his fictional worlds leadership, can see things a lot clearer.
We rarely get such people in RL positions of power.
Two friendly neighbours don't crap in each other's garden.
NOTHING p*sses folk off more than betrayal.
Such resentments linger for very, very long times.
Completely not worth it.

Our stupid, wicked, typical leaders are often sociopathic etc.
Where as cooperation is way more beneficial.
Game theory, SANE game theory, not one based on paranoid delusionalists or actual psychopaths.


Dholar is as Robert_A_Woodward notes, surrounded by potential enemies and the only good ally is Silkiah.
Dholar has WAY more to gain by Charis advancement, than its harm.
Sure, maybe miffed at not being the "biggest kid on the block" but only a freakin' moron lets such cause the literal cutting of your own peoples' throat.

Earth's political history is largely a fantastic example of how NOT TO BEHAVE! :lol:
Fiction is a nice antidote to the despair such causes
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