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Questions on Terran Federation Tech

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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by drothgery   » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:24 pm

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Daryl wrote:Imagine if the Gbaba were to interact with the Honorverse at their current level of warfare technology?
"What was that?". "Don't worry, just some genocidal aliens made a very big mistake, all taken care of".

Mind you I haven't seen any PICA level technology in the Honorverse?

On balance, Honorverse war fighting tech is probably better, even at SLN levels, though the Terran Federation has much better computers and real AI. But the big thing is that the Gbaba stumbling into the Honorverse would find humanity with over 3000 systems with non-trivial populations (and by Honorverse standards, that's over a billion people; there are thousands more inhabited systems with populations that major star nations consider too small to count), and lots of them with very large and well-trained navies. Consider the SLN's numbers in the hands of Honor or Tom Theisman ...
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:05 am

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Dauntless wrote:most of a PICA is no probably for honorverse tech.

about the only real thing that honorverse couldn't do would be the "recording" of the person to drive the PICA. some of the other software might also be be an issue.


The Honorverse could build PICAs, except for the "brains," the personality recordings, and the miniature fusion plant tucked away in Merlin's tummy without too much trouble. The only reason the Honorverse doesn't have truly sentient AI and mental interfacing with their computers (which is the really critical step to recording personalities) was that I wanted to clearly differentiate (and limit) its tech as compared to the Mutineers' Moon universe and the Apocalypse Troll, both of which had already been written and purchased by Baen before I started OBS (although the Troll got misplaced by Baen for something like 10-12 years, so it was actually published after Honor was well launched. There are some legitimate reasons to question whether or not a truly sentient artificial intelligence is possible (partly because of the debate over exactly what constitutes "true sentience"), so I simply decided that in the Honorverse it had turned out that it wasn't possible. I also decided to restrict critical operations on the bridge to keyboard rather than voice because that's the one place you really, really don't want background noise, a combat-related shift in timbre, or other issues to cause the voice recognition software to hiccup. And they use keyboards both when at battle stations and under normal operation conditions alike because they "train the way they intend to fight" and no one wants their command crews absorbing bad habits shifting back and forth between them. You've seen many instances of voice interaction with civilian AIs throughout the Honorverse novels and short stories, but the conditions civilians face when relating to computers are not the same as the ones the military faces. There are/will be occasions in the Honorverse where voice command of cyber systems is used by the military as well as by civilians; there just aren't very many of them.

It would be interesting to see how the Federation's ability to interface directly --- effectively "telepathically" through their NEAT wetware --- would play out against the Honorverse's generally superior weaponry. Which does not mean I have any plans to write a story in which that happens. :roll:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:10 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
It would be interesting to see how the Federation's ability to interface directly --- effectively "telepathically" through their NEAT wetware --- would play out against the Honorverse's generally superior weaponry. Which does not mean I have any plans to write a story in which that happens. :roll:


Frankly, the main Federation advantage would be their AI's. Direct neural interface or keyboard hardly play any role; any human commands are nothing more than general guidance for computers who run actual work (because even direct neural commands would be far too slow for space fire control).

Considering that Federation computer tech is very clearly much better than Honorverse's, the supposed superiority of Honorverse's weapon hardly play any role. The Federation AI's would just think better, think faster and predict much more accurately than Honorverse's.

Of course, it's up to RFC to decide the details, but from readers point of view it looks like that)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:11 pm

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drothgery wrote:
On balance, Honorverse war fighting tech is probably better, even at SLN levels, though the Terran Federation has much better computers and real AI.


You could not have better fighting tech with inferior computers. Since all space warfare is essentially computer-controlled by definition, the military hardware of Honorverse could not be superior to Federation.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Louis R   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:40 pm

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You are confusing the ability to determine what's happening with the ability to do something about it. If the TF Has no weapons that can penetrate Honorverse shielding, while the laser head makes Swiss cheese of any TF target, the best that AI can hope for is to survive long enough to empty the other side's magazines. If the TF has very effective warheads, on chassis that can't move faster than 5000kps, it wouldn't matter if they had unlimited range, they still would find it almost impossible to damage an Honorverse ship. And so on.

So the only thing that more effective AI might be good for is deciding to surrender faster. Unlikely, but entirely possible given what we [don't] know.

Dilandu wrote:
drothgery wrote:
On balance, Honorverse war fighting tech is probably better, even at SLN levels, though the Terran Federation has much better computers and real AI.


You could not have better fighting tech with inferior computers. Since all space warfare is essentially computer-controlled by definition, the military hardware of Honorverse could not be superior to Federation.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Isilith   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:47 pm

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OK, how does ANYONE ( other than RFC ) know if Honorverse level tech is greater than Federation level tech or not? We see many examples of war-fighting tech in the Honorverse, but we see none, zip, nada of the war-fighting tech of the Federation.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:09 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
drothgery wrote:
On balance, Honorverse war fighting tech is probably better, even at SLN levels, though the Terran Federation has much better computers and real AI.


You could not have better fighting tech with inferior computers. Since all space warfare is essentially computer-controlled by definition, the military hardware of Honorverse could not be superior to Federation.


You could, indeed, have superior war fighting tech with inferior computers.

First, inferiority is a matter of degree. For example, assume that the computation speed of Honorverse computers is just as fast as that of the Federation (which it is) but that Honorverse software lacks full sentience. Give the programmers sufficient insight into the weapons involved, and the degree to which a self-aware system able to rethink on the fly is better able to out-synthesize a system which isn't self aware but has been provided with decision trees which cover essentially all the possible permutations of how its own and its opponents weapons can be employed, and the "awareness" of the true AI is of limited utility.

Second, it doesn't matter how good your computers are if you are both slower than and hugely outranged by your opponent (which the Federation would be). Or are you suggesting that fitting the Mikasa with 2018 fire control and radar but without changing its armament or its maximum speed would somehow magically allow it to prevail over a poor, pathetic Iowa with state of the art 1946 radar and fire control?

Four 12" (850-pound shell; range 15,000 yards at 15 degrees elevation), fourteen 6", twenty 3", four 18" torpedo tube (range 3,300 yards), 4-9" belt, 2-3" deck, and speed of 15 knots versus nine 16" (shell weight 2,700 pounds; range 42,300 yards at 45 degrees), twenty 5", eighty 1.5" (40mm), 12.1" belt, 7" deck, speed of 33 knots. This imbalance is supposed to be offset because the Mikasa has superior fire control?

I think not, Moriarity.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:11 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
Second, it doesn't matter how good your computers are if you are both slower than and hugely outranged by your opponent (which the Federation would be). Or are you suggesting that fitting the Mikasa with 2018 fire control and radar but without changing its armament or its maximum speed would somehow magically allow it to prevail over a poor, pathetic Iowa with state of the art 1946 radar and fire control?


(Shrug) Easily. Using 2018s ECM equipment to absolutely confuse the "Iowa"'s 1946 radar, and old-fashioned smoke screen to block the "Iowa"'s optical directors. After that, the situation would be just the reversal of "Iowa" vs "Yamato" discussion; "Iowa" suddenly found herself absolutely unable to even find the target, while the target is pounding her with fire. And after a few 12-inch hits, the "Iowa" central fire control would go out completely.

1940s naval warfare was fire control, fire control and fire control. The "Iowa" was the best battleship of World War 2 exactly because her computers - yes, those electromechanicals computers - were the best available, and could maintain fire solution basically in any situation. And theoretically-superior in therms of weaponry and protection "Yamato" was so inferior in therms of fire control, that basically could not use her advantages outside of specific situations.

So thank you for the example that ideally demonstrated my thesis, mister Holmes)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:28 am

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runsforcelery wrote:

First, inferiority is a matter of degree. For example, assume that the computation speed of Honorverse computers is just as fast as that of the Federation (which it is) but that Honorverse software lacks full sentience. Give the programmers sufficient insight into the weapons involved, and the degree to which a self-aware system able to rethink on the fly is better able to out-synthesize a system which isn't self aware but has been provided with decision trees which cover essentially all the possible permutations of how its own and its opponents weapons can be employed, and the "awareness" of the true AI is of limited utility.


The ability to create fully sentience software is the question of architecture of systems. Basically if you could not create it, your computers are just more primitive, even if they could make calculation at the same speed by "brute force".

Considering how manpower-consuming are Honorverse's ships, and how often manual operations are mentioned in series:

"Acknowledged," Abigail replied, and turned to look at Vassari. The chief was staring intently at his display, and when she glanced into her own, Abigail saw the red sighting circle projected across the drone's small bead of light. The targeting solution looked good, but although the energy mount was tracking smoothly, holding the drone centered in the cross-hairs, it wasn't firing.

Abigail felt the other five members of Graser Thirty-Eight's crew staring at her, but she kept her own eyes on the plot. It had seemed like a good idea when she and Vassari came up with it; now, she wasn't nearly as certain. The drone was almost a third of the way through its pass, and still the laser designator hadn't fired. If it didn't do something soon, they were going to come up with a score of zero, and none of the other mounts had managed to do quite that poorly. She hovered on the brink of ordering Vassari to open fire anyway, on the theory that at least something would have to get through, but she closed her lips firmly against the temptation. It either worked, or it didn't; she wasn't going to second-guess herself in mid-flight and risk losing any opportunity of success. Besides, even if she—

"Got it!" Chief Vassari barked suddenly, and the laser designator "opened fire" before the words were fully out of his mouth.

Abigail watched the plot's sidebar, and her face blossomed in a huge smile as the rest of her crew began to cheer and whistle. The computers had identified the repetition of one of the earlier fly-bys, and Vassari's fire plan had instructed them to synchronize the mount's pulse rate with the recognized spin rate of the target. It meant that they weren't pumping out the maximum possible amount of destructive energy, but what they were pumping out was precisely timed to catch the drone at the moment that it turned the open side of its wedge towards the ship. The energy-on-target total shot up like a homesick meteor, and Abigail wanted to cheer herself as the laser designator systematically hammered the drone.


- with all respect, but if Honorverse's computers required human input to do such analysis, then they are VERY dumb. Worse than modern comps.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Questions on Terran Federation Tech
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:48 am

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Dilandu wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:

First, inferiority is a matter of degree. For example, assume that the computation speed of Honorverse computers is just as fast as that of the Federation (which it is) but that Honorverse software lacks full sentience. Give the programmers sufficient insight into the weapons involved, and the degree to which a self-aware system able to rethink on the fly is better able to out-synthesize a system which isn't self aware but has been provided with decision trees which cover essentially all the possible permutations of how its own and its opponents weapons can be employed, and the "awareness" of the true AI is of limited utility.




The ability to create fully sentience software is the question of architecture of systems. Basically if you could not create it, your computers are just more primitive, even if they could make calculation at the same speed by "brute force".

Considering how manpower-consuming are Honorverse's ships, and how often manual operations are mentioned in series:

"Acknowledged," Abigail replied, and turned to look at Vassari. The chief was staring intently at his display, and when she glanced into her own, Abigail saw the red sighting circle projected across the drone's small bead of light. The targeting solution looked good, but although the energy mount was tracking smoothly, holding the drone centered in the cross-hairs, it wasn't firing.

Abigail felt the other five members of Graser Thirty-Eight's crew staring at her, but she kept her own eyes on the plot. It had seemed like a good idea when she and Vassari came up with it; now, she wasn't nearly as certain. The drone was almost a third of the way through its pass, and still the laser designator hadn't fired. If it didn't do something soon, they were going to come up with a score of zero, and none of the other mounts had managed to do quite that poorly. She hovered on the brink of ordering Vassari to open fire anyway, on the theory that at least something would have to get through, but she closed her lips firmly against the temptation. It either worked, or it didn't; she wasn't going to second-guess herself in mid-flight and risk losing any opportunity of success. Besides, even if she—

"Got it!" Chief Vassari barked suddenly, and the laser designator "opened fire" before the words were fully out of his mouth.

Abigail watched the plot's sidebar, and her face blossomed in a huge smile as the rest of her crew began to cheer and whistle. The computers had identified the repetition of one of the earlier fly-bys, and Vassari's fire plan had instructed them to synchronize the mount's pulse rate with the recognized spin rate of the target. It meant that they weren't pumping out the maximum possible amount of destructive energy, but what they were pumping out was precisely timed to catch the drone at the moment that it turned the open side of its wedge towards the ship. The energy-on-target total shot up like a homesick meteor, and Abigail wanted to cheer herself as the laser designator systematically hammered the drone.


- with all respect, but if Honorverse's computers required human input to do such analysis, then they are VERY dumb. Worse than modern comps.


You do realize that in the scene you cited the entire firing procedure is computer-controlled? The Chief isn't saying "Now we can squeeze the trigger;" he's saying "The computer's found what we've been looking for and is now firing."

You also realize that it was a training exercise, and that one of the objects thereof was to encourage snotties to think out of the box with the crews of weapons mounts which are in local control because they've been cut off from centralized control? Part of the exercise's objectives was to see if Abigail would notice the opportunity, not if the computers could spot it.

Computers were about twenty-seven years less developed when I began the series than they are today. I am sort of stuck with aspects of Honorverse cyber technology that are "grandfathered in" after all this time. And, I will acknowledge, I deliberately structured a computer-human interface which required the human element because it was the human element about which I intended to write. Despite that, from the very beginning, there have been computers doing one hell of a lot on a dynamic basis behind the scenes because, frankly, it wasn't necessary to talk about them and because this isn't a literary universe designed to allow human beings to push a button at the beginning of the engagement and then just sit there and wonder if they are going to survive it.

Perhaps if I were launching the Honorverse today, I would have selected a different combat environment. I didn't, but some of the conclusions you are drawing are being drawn on the basis of absence of evidence. As I have pointed out upon more than one occasion, if anyone out there thinks that I believe you can maneuver and direct a several million tons superdreadnought using a joystick and the Mark one eyeball, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. Other aspects of Honorverse computer technology follow the same model as the joystick interface that puts a planet-eating impeller wedge under "fingertip control" by the helmsman.

And, I might point out, that comments on the stupidity of Honorverse computers notwithstanding, you haven't said anything here that contradicts my point about a Mikasa with Aegis fire control somehow miraculously defeating an Iowa with the Mark 38 fire control system and the Mark 8 Rangekeeper.

Mikasa is still on the bottom of the Pacific in record time, no matter what electronics fit she has.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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